Atheists, what would make you change your mind?

[Court]

court, regarding your earlier postings, you do seem to have a big problem seeing anything good in the God of the bible, maybe related to treatment you also received from your own father, a mistake quite a lot of people make, if that's what you meant

I never said I have a problem with seeing anything good in god...the judeo-christian god could be good sometimes, but the most part, he was pretty f***ed-up. All I had to do was read the bible to get that (for some examples, www.skepticsannotatedbible.com, click on women, family, violence, etc for a good look at god in the bible)....You have no idea what my relationship with my father is, so please don't project that crap that christians always think: I'm not angry with god because my home life was a mess. He didn't beat me or rape me or anything, he was a just a dick. Still is; I was just making the point that despite his imperfections, I'm still a pretty decent, well-rounded person. The same person I would be if I found out god was real, only I'd be shocked that normal people could possibly be created by such a monster. The christian god is one scary mofo.

[Asmodean Prime]

court, i wasnt trying to imply anything out of hand, i was trying to be careful not to overstep the mark, as your point was a little hard to follow.  anyway, i think we have to realise that God IS God, who has the right to create or destroy life (and worlds) as He wills, and that's why i think it is good to fear God, ie, have a healthy respect and reverence for Him, and so not get too arrogant.  we are all only human after all, and mortal, and vulnerable, and limited both in our understanding and our capabilities.   is it not better to be safe than sorry.

no offence meant earlier, by the way

[Court]

i've noticed too, as McQ seemed to indicate, that a few of you on here seem to be, well, bitter and angry cos of some of the questions i ask, or points i make.

we Christians have always had to put up with ridicule and even persecution for our beliefs, as is well known,

the point i'm making is, if you are convinced so strongly about what you believe, i think maybe you should be able to discuss your beliefs and have them open to scrutiny without getting so offended or uptight

is that not so?

maybe not, let me know

Well, I'm a little pissed that you think you suddenly know why I'm an atheist because my father is a jerk. But I'll forgive you; you all do it. Just remember that my deconversion happened after I stopped talking to him, and has absolutely nothing to with my family. I stopped believing in god because he made no sense, not because I was angry at him or hurt.

Atheists may tend to get uptight in these conversations I think because we hear the same tired arguments with no rationality behind them all the time. It's a bit tedious to have to tell every self-righteous christian the same answers for the same questions. But that's our choice. After all, we don't have to be on forums or even answer christians. However, part of it stems from the christian "I'm always right, no matter WHAT you say" stance, which is incredibly frustrating. If you're here to convert, leave. You're not going to do any good witnessing to a bunch of atheists who are comfortable enough to call themselves such (or agnostics). If you want to have an open discussion in which you are willing to at least consider our side of the argument, that's fine. Unfortunately, that is not what most christians do. Trust me, we have all considered your side of the argument, and are willing to talk if you can seriously consider ours.

[Jassman]

God IS God, who has the right to create or destroy life

Entertaining the idea that this god exists,

It would be his right to destroy life. If you build something, you can break it too. But it is horribly irresponsible and evil. Just because it's his right to do something doesn't mean that I can't judge him for it. Surely there are more "loving" ways to deal with his perceived problems, isn't there?

Problem: There are some bad people in the world.

God's solution: Drown everyone!

Problem: Everyone is sinning.

God's solution: Make a kid and kill him! Then state that said action forgives people's sins. (Can't an all-powerful entity forgive sins without killing someone?)

Problem: Some people don't believe in God.

God's solution: Build a place that burns forever and send people there to be in excruciating pain for all of eternity!

Now are these the best ways to deal with these problems? I'm not omniscient yet even I could think of much better ways to correct them...

[Big Mac]

Dammit you guys, I wanted to throw that one at him. I'm not angry, bitter, etc. I'm irritated by ignorant Christians who come on our place and piss all over the carpet, then expect us to be sporting a shit-eating grin. Look, I've heard and done all the things you can pull out of your proverbial ass. I was once a Christian who believed in witnessing to EVERYONE. I mean I would blast others who weren't "as good of a Christian as me". Yeah I wasn't a very good Christian but I came to realize that it's not the worst thing in life. I could be Rosie O'Donnell's publicist. I'd rather use sandpaper on my nether regions.

[Amor Fati]

anyway, i think we have to realise that God IS God, who has the right to create or destroy life (and worlds) as He wills, and that's why i think it is good to fear God, ie, have a healthy respect and reverence for Him, and so not get too arrogant.  we are all only human after all, and mortal, and vulnerable, and limited both in our understanding and our capabilities.   is it not better to be safe than sorry

.

If you mean 'christians' by 'we' then yeah, but that's trivially true, however obviously false if you're referring to every human on the planet.  First, comes the concept of a god, then the elaboration of his characteristics, then a deduction of his will, desires, commands, etc.  For someone who demands some sort of logical explanation for existence, these steps are rigorous and definitely seperate, and not at all muddled together in a simple realization.

[McQ]

Can we turn the flame-throwers down just a bit? I mean, let's have a little Rodney King, getting along group hug, ok?

[Big Mac]

Oh come on, it's fun. It's like Kill Whitey except not so minority related.

[Asmodean Prime]

Can we turn the flame-throwers down just a bit? I mean, let's have a little Rodney King, getting along group hug, ok?

Damn it, I am happy!   :bang:

[Whitney]

Can we turn the flame-throwers down just a bit? I mean, let's have a little Rodney King, getting along group hug, ok?

Speaking as a fellow member (admin hat off):

I realize theists can get a little annoying at times, especially when it seems like they may be implying or claiming they know something about us personally or simply don't get whatever point you're trying to make.  But, it's kinda hard to keep a decent discussion going when reading too much into some of the posts.  Sometimes certain comments may be deserving of a kinda harsh response, just try not turn that response into a flaming session and remember that every member is a real person.  If you don't think you'd say what you are about to post to someone's face...maybe it's going outside the bounds of treating someone with respect.

Also, it is hard to keep a decent discussion going when every few posts by the theist is along the lines of "we just gotta believe because we are only human."  (hint on what to try not to do, onlyme).  So, those from both sides of the debate should think about what may be frustrating/bothering the other and maybe the discussion would go more smoothly.

[Asmodean Prime]

such a calm voice of reason this mod is...hat back on.

[Amor Fati]

When I 'lol' it's always from a position of kindness.  The 'LMAO', however, is inherently sarcastic and biting.  

[Asmodean Prime]

again, thanks, McQ, for giving me a fair hearing.  as for Christ, 'damn it, i am happy', i think our own personal happiness should not be the main thing, we may have to 'suffer' for the good of others at times.

again, McQ, you said a personal visit from God would convince you.  well, here is where faith comes into play, i believe.   i think we will all get the panoramic view you describe eventually

maybe i should leave now, as the main admit 'laetus' said earlier that if i was wishing to convert, i should leave.   maybe i should respect that.

what do people think?  i will definitely respect the majority decision

[MommaSquid]

Are you afraid your own doubts will grow if you stay?

[McQ]

again, thanks, McQ, for giving me a fair hearing.  as for Christ, 'damn it, i am happy', i think our own personal happiness should not be the main thing, we may have to 'suffer' for the good of others at times.

again, McQ, you said a personal visit from God would convince you.  well, here is where faith comes into play, i believe.   i think we will all get the panoramic view you describe eventually

maybe i should leave now, as the main admit 'laetus' said earlier that if i was wishing to convert, i should leave.   maybe i should respect that.

what do people think?  i will definitely respect the majority decision

Onlyme, you're welcome. As for my vote, I am and have been of the opinion that you are welcome here. I am just a registered user here and don't have a say. I can't speak for anyone else. The opinions here range all over, I'm sure. To me, we were just having a conversation, same as if we were talking in person.

Some want to debate, some want to tweak others. I didn't think you came in to convert or "troll". I do wish people would keep it in mind when they reply to your questions and comments though, that they should speak as if you were right in front of them. Keeps things civil, as they should be.

Again, I'm happy to converse with you.