Atheists, what would make you change your mind?

[Court]

He just said he had to go to work, onlyme, and he'll get back to you. Don't be a jerk.

[MikeyV]

so what would make you change you mind again?

He'd have to show up. He's god, he can figure out what it would take to convince the world. But, it's got to be something more substantial than a 2000 year old highly edited and misinterpreted book.

maybe if you only had one day left to live?

I'm not afraid of death. I came to terms with my mortality long ago. I didn't exist for trillions of years before I was born, why should I fear non existence for eternity after I die? I won't know, nor care.

and i am fearful of dying, but death IS a scary and unfathomable thing to me.

That is probably the single biggest reason people believe in a god. Fear.

I almost wish that there were a god, and that he did reveal himself. I have the sneaking suspicion that he wouldn't resemble anything you think you know about god. What makes you so sure that your small little sect within the minority religion on the planet is correct?

I must add that I'm with Court on this one. IF god exists, and IF he is the judeo christian version, I will take my punishment as a man. I refuse to bow down before the tyrant depicted in the Wholly Babble. To worship this thug, that chooses favorites, commits genocide, kills women and children, punishes innocent people for the crimes of others, promotes discrimination, is a disgusting idea.

[MommaSquid]

onlyme, here's your bible quote:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo ... xt=context

Deuteronomy 22:27-29 (New International Version)

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [a] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

So instead of punishing the rapist, god makes him pay for sex and then further tortures the woman by making her marry the creep who raped her.  

Do you still think the bible makes sense?  Do you still not understand why we refuse to worship this god?  Atheists actually read the bible.  Do you?

Where were you before you were born?  Were you afraid?  I have no fear of death.  

I'm sorry you've experienced so much loss in your life.   But being afraid is no way to live.

[McQ]

Something in this thread and others that concerns me are the short fuses people seem to have. Forums such as this are places where people exchange ideas, discuss them and sometimes debate them. Come on folks, learn to discuss and debate without the name-calling, please. These things exist to share ideas, not to flame someone every time you disagree. Take the time before posting to think a little bit.

I disagree with onlyme's theology, but there's no reason to continue to flame and bash him, or call him a jerk. Please try an show a little tact.

[Whitney]

i was just wondering what, if anything, would cause you to consider God as having a valid claim on your life?  do you think you are forever set in your ways, beliefwise?    well, some of you said you did believe at one point, so you have changed your beliefs at least ONCE.

so what would make you change you mind again?  maybe if you only had one day left to live?

Other than direct intervention from God himself, nothing would cause me to believe in the Christian version of God again.  I don't know how familiar you are with some of the less warm and fuzzy parts of the bible...there are quite a few of them:  http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com is a good place to quickly look at some of those parts.  The site uses the kjv version, just so you know.  I also have a philosophical reasons for why that sort of god isn't as loving as churches try to make him sound.  One of them is in the religioin section titled "problem of design."

If for some reason I found out for certain the Christian (or Muslim) version of god is correct, I'd have a lot of deep thinking to do as to whether I'd give into fear and follow or stand by by convictions in rebellion.  Right now, completely believing they are the creations of man, I have no problem saying I wouldn't follow either.  But I also know that if such a evil tempered god were standing face to face to me I'm a whimp and would have to rethink how willing I am to directly reject such a being.

So, I have intellectual reasons which back up my emotional reasons for reaching the conclusion that certain types of gods don't exist, namely the Judeo/Christian/Islam religions and it would take obvious divine intervention for me to change my mind on those.

I think what I have said so far pretty much answers the question of if I would repent just before death.  That answer is no.  I'm actually not afraid of death at all.  Death is a natural part of life and it is useless to be afraid of the inevitable.  My grandmother died not too long after I reached the conclusion that a god doesn't exist.  I didn't go back and pray to god to keep her around longer or anything like that.  She was suffering from cancer and it was time for her body to let go.  I was sad for her to be gone but also happy that she was no longer suffering.

So, what would make be believe in a god in general.  A solid philosophical proof would be good enough.  Right now the only ones that slightly hint at the possibility of a god (anything is possible anyway) but none indicate that there would have to be a god....possible doesn't mean probable.  Divine intervention of some sort would also work, maybe seeing a ghost or something.  But, seeing something like a ghost or other non deity-like supernatural being wouldn't necessarily be proof of a god...it would just make me seriously rethink my position.  I've never seen anything supernatural, so I don't really expect to ever see anything like that.

[Amor Fati]

Deuteronomy

22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;    
22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.


'lay hold on her' is interpreted by biblical scholars to mean 'rape'.

[Asmodean Prime]

good point, amor fati

lay hold on her seems to be saying they engaged in premarital sex thats all, not rape.

giving of money was common in those days, also

and 'he may not put her away all his days' does seem to imply that he is not to just dump her after having his wicked way, more of a protection for the girl than a betrayal.

that's my interpretation, anyway, i think it was distorted by some of the other postings

[Asmodean Prime]

by the way, thanks McQ for standing up for me

[Jassman]

lay hold on her seems to be saying they engaged in premarital sex thats all, not rape.

Please explain. It does honestly sound like rape to me. Is your interpretation more valid than a bible scholar's?

giving of money was common in those days, also

Slavery was also common in those days, but that doesn't make it okay for god to advocate it in his best-seller merely to sell more copies (he does advocate slavery, by the way).

[Asmodean Prime]

court, regarding your earlier postings, you do seem to have a big problem seeing anything good in the God of the bible, maybe related to treatment you also received from your own father, a mistake quite a lot of people make, if that's what you meant

regarding God being sadistic or murderous, i've been doing research into ancient biblical history which seems to suggest that there was some kind of sexual breeding with fallen angels, (demons nephilim, giants of old), which contaminated and degraded the gene pool and resulted in genetically altered mutants of some kind, so its possible God destroyed the evil race, yes, like with sodom.  i'm not entirely sure, though, it's just that it seems to be hinted at.

[Asmodean Prime]

i've noticed too, as McQ seemed to indicate, that a few of you on here seem to be, well, bitter and angry cos of some of the questions i ask, or points i make.

we Christians have always had to put up with ridicule and even persecution for our beliefs, as is well known,

the point i'm making is, if you are convinced so strongly about what you believe, i think maybe you should be able to discuss your beliefs and have them open to scrutiny without getting so offended or uptight

is that not so?

maybe not, let me know

[Jassman]

Just took a look through biblegateway.com to see how many of the different versions translated it. Here are my results:

Code Select Expand

New International Version:                       "rape"
King James Version:                              "lay hold"
New Living Translation:                          "rape"
New American Standard Version:                   "seizes her"
English Standard Version:                        "seizes her"
Contemporary English Version:                    "talks her into sleeping with him"
New King James Version:                          "seizes her"
Young's Literal Translation:                     "hath caught her"
New Life Version:                                "takes her"
New International Reader's Version:              "rapes her"
Today's New International Version:               "rapes her"


I think a fairly strong case could be made that the author of Deuteronomy intended it to mean rape.

[MommaSquid]

onlyme, you seem to have missed my questions, so I'll ask them again.

Atheists actually read the bible.  Do you?

Where were you before you were born?  Were you afraid?

I don't feel angry, bitter, offended or uptight in regards to you asking questions.  I do feel that you should do some homework before coming to an atheist website and asking questions.  Atheists know a lot about religion, but you don't seem to have a basic understanding of atheists.  I wouldn't advise you to rely on us to answer all of your questions.  We all found our own answers, and so should you.

(The above should not be read in an angry tone, as that was not my intent.  Emotions are sometimes hard to judge online.)

[Jassman]

i've noticed too, as McQ seemed to indicate, that a few of you on here seem to be, well, bitter and angry cos of some of the questions i ask, or points i make.

I'm not bitter or angry as long as you are actually discussing the issues at hand with an open mind and as little bias as possible. If you are really here to consider perspectives other than your own, then I am glad you are on this forum.

we Christians have always had to put up with ridicule and even persecution for our beliefs, as is well known,

I'm not sure how it is over there in Europe, but here in North America, Christianity is the leading religious group. How can the majority be persecuted? I don't know how Christians can have this persecution-complex when the majority of those in the government over here are religious to some extent and the majority of the general population regard Jesus as their personal saviour...

the point i'm making is, if you are convinced so strongly about what you believe, i think maybe you should be able to discuss your beliefs and have them open to scrutiny without getting so offended or uptight

If you have valid criticisms about our worldviews, then I welcome them into discussion. Some of them though are obviously invalid suspicions bred from ignorance.

[Asmodean Prime]

Mommasquid

Atheists actually read the bible. Do you?

Where were you before you were born? Were you afraid?

1:  yes, i do read the bible, its just that its so big and contains such a lot of info that i cant remember most of it off the top of my head.

2:  i obviously have no recollection of before i was born, but in the bible God said that He knew us before He formed us in the womb.  before the foundation of the world.

i dont know what to make of that personally.  i just know it's there.