I am antiabortion because I am an atheist

[VanReal]

Cyberateos,

I am curious, what do you propose we do with all of these unwanted babies that are born because the mother is not allowed to abort it?

[curiosityandthecat]

I am not twisting your words, but adding my own words.
You feel that a fetal baby is a parasite that may be destroyed.
I feel that abortionist women and doctors are parasites that may be destroyed.
You are concerned for biological parasitism. I am concerned for social parasitism.

I feel that a fetus falls into the category of parasite (albeit one many prospective mothers are happy to carry around) and thus has different rights than an individual with agency in society.

Just want you to understand that, in as far as the argument you are making (that a fetus in utero should have the same rights as a baby that's been delivered), a woman or doctor's strain on society (societal parasitism) is completely pointless.

False. I am pro abortion in some sense. I promote the use of IUD`s, condoms, forced sterilization, etc.

That's contraception. Not abortion. You can't abort a fetus that doesn't exist. You can't say that it's preemptive abortion, either. Can you cancel a television show that's never even been written?

False. Pro abortion implies that abortion could be unpunished, promoted or even mandatory, as it occurs in China. There is a broad spectrum of possibilities.

In China, abortion has been used to enforce a single-child policy, this is true. However, this topic is much more complex than a simple "China promotes abortion." Half my family is Chinese. Don't get me started on this or I'll go for days.

Why? In Colombia, teenagers were forced to carry condoms.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but okay, good for them. Educating them on how to use them is more important than forcing them to carry, however. Still, I'm okay with that.

Abortionist should consider carefully that all their arguments may be used against them.

Abortionist... is that like a Darwinist? Is someone who likes bananas a Bananaist? I'm eating a Jimmy Johns sub right now, does that make me a Jimmy Johnist? I like Coke more than Pepsi (but Mountain Dew more than both), so does that make me a Cokist? Anyone's argument may be used against him or her. As I said, stating that fact is meaningless. Doing it is useful, though argumentatively boring.

A healthy fetus is similar to an anencephalic fetus, but their differences make one of them ethically killable and the other a person who deserves protection.

No, their difference makes killing one easier to deal with on an empathetic level.

You, UK, American and European people have an extremist point of view of some rights: reproductive rights, women`s rights, parental rights, health rights, etc.

That rights exist, but your approach of them seems extremist for other cultures.

You're generalizing. Be specific or what you just said is meaningless.

[Nulono]

You're not reading what I'm typing.

"what matters is its ability to interact with others in a meaningful way. Before birth, this simply does not happen."

Robinson Crusoe or a hermit have the ability to interact with others in a meaningful way, but do not (through circumstance or decision). A fetus does not have the ability to interact with others in a meaningful way.

You admitted nothing significant happens at birth, and a premature baby has the ability to interact.. If a newborn has the ability to interact, so does the fetus. The fetus has the ability to interact, but does not through circumstance.

[curiosityandthecat]

You admitted nothing significant happens at birth, and a premature baby has the ability to interact.. If a newborn has the ability to interact, so does the fetus. The fetus has the ability to interact, but does not through circumstance.

To be honest, I'm playing devil's advocate and have no interest in staking a claim in that position, or spending time and effort defending it. It's simply my reaction to his reaction to my reaction to his reaction to my reaction to his....

[PipeBox]

You admitted nothing significant happens at birth, and a premature baby has the ability to interact.. If a newborn has the ability to interact, so does the fetus. The fetus has the ability to interact, but does not through circumstance.

To be honest, I'm playing devil's advocate and have no interest in staking a claim in that position, or spending time and effort defending it. It's simply my reaction to his reaction to my reaction to his reaction to my reaction to his....

Aye, when you get right down to it, there's one thing cyberateos doesn't want to admit.  Society makes the laws.
He won't win any followers by calling his opposition baby rapers, either, except for the religious pickets.
He also overlooks the very real cost of society being in line with his morals.  The cost of doctors and morticians to investigate every dead fetus, the cost of checkups to verify the baby hasn't been aborted, the cost of driving out to every small country in the world and keeping a close eye on their pregnant women.  And what of this international law that he wants?  The countries that don't sign will surely not extradite their women for breaking international law.  He conveniently overlooks the cost of not aborting, as well, to the individual and the government.  How many more families would be on welfare, how much more state assistance would be required?  It's a mess, a utopia only for his dreams.

[cyberateos]

DIY

1 What is abortion, in your opinion? Your last post makes it very enigmatic.

I believe that the word "abortion" should dissapear in the next year, to be sustituted by other words such as: spermaticide, blastocistide, embryocide, feticide, etc.

2 At what point does a fetus need to be registered using your system?

In a first period, all 13 week fetuses should be registered and considered "legally born" worldwide. A country who would refuse to establish that registration, would suffer punishments.

3 When does the life of the fetus become more important that the life of the mother?

Really, both lives are equally important, but  don`t forget the mother has parental duties toward her offspring (intrauterine or extrauterine).

4 Do Doctors in latin america have a board (college of physicians and surgeons) to which they must answer?

Here, abortion is being discussed. Then, different colleges have different opinions according to the political parties that have paid to them to hold an idea.

5 Do Doctors in latin america need to consult an ethics board before performing a late term abortion?

No. Law normally requires two medical opinions, but, for example, in Argentina, those cases become so popular, that virtually the entire country is a "ethics board".

6 How does your proposed registry force reluctant (fearful) mothers to register their fetus?

If a mother who has delivered a baby refuses to register it, she is punished. Is not she? Also, a man who refuses to pay money after a divorce is punished.

But really doctors who care for the mother would have the duty to report the existence of that fetus. Signing a document would be an aditional step for the supposed father and the supposed mother.

7 What allowances do you make for the hormonal changes, sleep deprivation, post partum depression women can suffer?

Ha, ha... Post partum depression has been used as a "crime of psychiatry" to support the feminazi lobby to get impunity. Both, feminazis and Mengeles psychiatrists should be sent to a penal colony.

8 How do you expect that by making an example of a mother that aborts her baby, you're going to influence the decisions that
are made by any other woman in such an emotionally fragile state (considering the abortion of her baby)? (Have you ever been a father?(I have to conclude you're male
based on your stance on this issue)).

Murderers use to be coward people. If potential abortionist mothers and doctors are sure that they will go to an electric chair if they kill a fetal baby, they won`t kill even a fly.

9 Are you an atheist? How does this relate to your post?

A true atheist should not make any distinction between intrauterine minors and extrauterine minors, because that differentiation is based on magical beliefs, not on science.

[cyberateos]

Cyberateos,

I am curious, what do you propose we do with all of these unwanted babies that are born because the mother is not allowed to abort it?

She may give them to State to canalize them to abortion.

But that woman should be forced to pay money to help the adopter, exactly as a divorced man is forced to pay money to rise his children.

[cyberateos]

Curiosity:

I feel that a fetus falls into the category of parasite (albeit one many prospective mothers are happy to carry around) and thus has different rights than an individual with agency in society.

Your argument is not logical because lots of people are parasites, perhaps even Lady Di or other kings and queens.

And "biological parasitism" is not very different to "social parasitism". Your argumente is weak, very, very weak.

Just want you to understand that, in as far as the argument you are making (that a fetus in utero should have the same rights as a baby that's been delivered), a woman or doctor's strain on society (societal parasitism) is completely pointless.

No. I am being empathetic with you. Really, you and me are the same: both feel that some human beings should be killed cruely, as worms.

 The difference is that you want to kill innocent children, and I want to kill those who murder innocent children.

But despite that difference, you and me, both, are murderers because we promote legal murders.

In China, abortion has been used to enforce a single-child policy, this is true. However, this topic is much more complex than a simple "China promotes abortion." Half my family is Chinese. Don't get me started on this or I'll go for days.

Is it true that in China a newborn is considered one year old?    

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but okay, good for them. Educating them on how to use them is more important than forcing them to carry, however.

I support thas spermaticide be forced. I would support even that surgical sterilisation be forced. Reproductive rights should de limited.

[cyberateos]

Pipebox:

Aye, when you get right down to it, there's one thing cyberateos doesn't want to admit. Society makes the laws.
He won't win any followers by calling his opposition baby rapers, either, except for the religious pickets.
He also overlooks the very real cost of society being in line with his morals. The cost of doctors and morticians to investigate every dead fetus, the cost of checkups to verify the baby hasn't been aborted, the cost of driving out to every small country in the world and keeping a close eye on their pregnant women. And what of this international law that he wants? The countries that don't sign will surely not extradite their women for breaking international law. He conveniently overlooks the cost of not aborting, as well, to the individual and the government. How many more families would be on welfare, how much more state assistance would be required? It's a mess, a utopia only for his dreams.

Really, society has spent much money in an extremist protection for women.

In some countries, several guys have been locked in jail only because they were drunk and slapped the butt of a girl.

If feminazi laws were stopped, that resources could be employed to antiabortion and other anti-feminazi laws.

The real problem is the inferiority complex of men of our Western society, that is a "reverted Taliban", a real matriarcal society.

[PipeBox]

Really, society has spent much money in an extremist protection for women.

In some countries, several guys have been locked in jail only because they were drunk and slapped the butt of a girl.

If feminazi laws were stopped, that resources could be employed to antiabortion and other anti-feminazi laws.

The real problem is the inferiority complex of men of our Western society, that is a "reverted Taliban", a real matriarcal society.

We don't call in doctors and morticians to inspect the woman's butt to determine if it was hit.  There is not an international registration for women's butts that might be slapped.  The person we jail for the night doesn't incur a big cost to the state.  He will likely be fined if it was in a place of business, or will be freed the next day if the state does not press charges.  A woman does not require regular checkups for her butt that must be financed by the state.  International law does not demand extradition men who slap women on the butt.

The cost isn't remotely on the same scale.  500,000 women got pregnant today.  Did 500,000 women also get slapped on the butt and report it to the authorities?

As to all your "feminazi" BS, well, I'm hoping Hitsumei comes in here and rips you a new ass, but suffice it to say I think you're sexist.

[VanReal]

I believe that the word "abortion" should dissapear in the next year, to be sustituted by other words such as: spermaticide, blastocistide, embryocide, feticide, etc.

Why would it disappear?  Because of your registry plan?  Did abortions disappear when they were illegal?

A country who would refuse to establish that registration, would suffer punishments.

And this would be policed by whom?

Really, both lives are equally important, but  don`t forget the mother has parental duties toward her offspring (intrauterine or extrauterine).

The fact that you can say they are equally important is absolutely ridiculous.  A fetus lives off of the mother, it can not live outside of her body and doesn’t have any inherent rights or qualities while doing so.  You feel that someone killing your mother should be punished the same as someone that aborts a fetus?  

If a mother who has delivered a baby refuses to register it, she is punished. Is not she? Also, a man who refuses to pay money after a divorce is punished.

No, actually that is not true and they are not punished as committing a felonious criminal act.

But really doctors who care for the mother would have the duty to report the existence of that fetus. Signing a document would be an additional step for the supposed father and the supposed mother.

So you are advocating that people choose to go without prenatal care and birth at home alone to avoid your registry.  This is what would happen.  Much like women received dangerous back alley abortions before they were legal, they would simply not seek the prenatal care and birth at home and dumpster the baby.  This would be a massive step backwards.

Ha, ha... Post partum depression has been used as a "crime of psychiatry" to support the feminazi lobby to get impunity. Both, feminazis and Mengeles psychiatrists should be sent to a penal colony.

You are very misinformed.  Post partum depression is real and was around long before it arrived in court for a defense for bad acts committed from those suffering from it.  You don’t have to be a feminist or a woman to understand that hormones and chemical interactions cause deficiencies and emotional disorders in the brain.  

Murderers use to be coward people. If potential abortionist mothers and doctors are sure that they will go to an electric chair if they kill a fetal baby, they won’t kill even a fly.

Absolutely false.  You are relying on the deterrence factor and assuming that it works (and apparently assuming it works 100% of the time).  In general deterrence does not work, people tend to have the “it won’t happen to me”  mentality and will weigh the potential risk against the immediate emotional need.  This is why the Minimum Mandatory Sentencing legislation imposed in the states has not worked at reducing the illegal sale of drugs (although prisons are full of drug dealers) and why people still commit murder in states with capital punishment.  It’s also why bootlegging was in full swing during prohibition and why the black market exists in just about every country.  Deterrence doesn’t work….well, unless you are the Dog Whisperer.

A true atheist should not make any distinction between intrauterine minors and extrauterine minors, because that differentiation is based on magical beliefs, not on science.

There is nothing magical about thinking that an abortion, while it’s not the ideal form of birth control, is justifiably okay.  There is nothing scientific nor magical about this issue, it’s a social issue and a moral issue for some but neither magical nor scientific.

Likewise, atheists do not need to be worshippers of everything science.

She may give them to State to canalize them to abortion.

? So the state can abort them after they are born…or am I not understanding this statement?  

Do you have another more intelligent argument to justify your fetusphobia? [/quote]

Yes, these are the same people running through Africa telling everyone using a condom is a sin.  However, you have used this before and stated that this word, among others, will replace abortion in the near future, so assume you are in agreement even though you state you are not.

Really, society has spent much money in an extremist protection for women.

You are very anti-women’s rights, but understandably it is different in Latin America where the male machismo still reins supreme.  Please provide data, statistics, scholarly source, etc., for the “much money” that has been spent on the protection of women by society so I can refute that with the blood, sweat and tears that have been spent by women to attain even moderate rights, starting with suffrage.

In some countries, several guys have been locked in jail only because they were drunk and slapped the butt of a girl.

Source please.  And he should keep his freakin’ hands to himself!  

If feminazi laws were stopped, that resources could be employed to antiabortion and other anti-feminazi laws.

Please stop with the feminazi shit.  We get it, you don’t like it.  But, your view on this particular issue is WAY more attributable to nazi philosophy/thinking than anything feminists' attempt of social or legal change.

The real problem is the inferiority complex of men of our Western society, that is a "reverted Taliban", a real matriarcal society.

Ah, now we are getting somewhere.  Why did we have to go through all of this to get here.  Please start the thread you actually wanted to.  â€œMen have been replaced by women and the women are emasculating us.  Let’s strike back and convict them of murder for having abortions”!!

[DIY 1138]

deleted by poster

[VanReal]

As to all your "feminazi" BS, well, I'm hoping Hitsumei comes in here and rips you a new ass, but suffice it to say I think you're sexist.

You noticed that too did you?  Hmmm, he's mentioned that (1) fathers would be off the hook on this, (2) women would have to pay for the adoptions, (3) "just like men who pay for things after divorce" (several times on this one), (4) women's rights have cost countless dollars bill footed by society, (5) women are equal to floting fetuses, (6) and we have the nerve to complain about drunks slapping us on the ass!! (Many more but I am recalling the last few posts alone.)

It took a while to get to the meat and potatoes of this one, yikes, I really feel like I must now go outside and find a man to berate and then call the cops on him.

[cyberateos]

Pipe:

We don't call in doctors and morticians to inspect the woman's butt to determine if it was hit. There is not an international registration for women's butts that might be slapped. The person we jail for the night doesn't incur a big cost to the state. He will likely be fined if it was in a place of business, or will be freed the next day if the state does not press charges. A woman does not require regular checkups for her butt that must be financed by the state. International law does not demand extradition men who slap women on the butt.

The cost isn't remotely on the same scale. 500,000 women got pregnant today. Did 500,000 women also get slapped on the butt and report it to the authorities?

As to all your "feminazi" BS, well, I'm hoping Hitsumei comes in here and rips you a new ass, but suffice it to say I think you're sexist.

In Mexico City, left wing political party has the Reclusorio Oriente jail fulled of men accused for butt touching in the subway. Thas accusations use to be a feminazi dirty trick to get money from the man who was accused.

That political party also maid abortions legal. Would not it be more logical to use that jail space and expenses in punishing abortionist women instead of virtually innocent men?

[curiosityandthecat]

In Mexico City, left wing political party has the Reclusorio Oriente jail fulled of men accused for butt touching in the subway. Thas accusations use to be a feminazi dirty trick to get money from the man who was accused.

That political party also maid abortions legal. Would not it be more logical to use that jail space and expenses in punishing abortionist women instead of virtually innocent men? :brick:  :brick:  :brick:  :brick:  :brick:  :brick:  :brick:  :brick:  

I'm done with this misogynistic bullshit. You want reproductive rights curbed. You want "Abortionists" thrown in jail and executed. You cannot understand that the rights and wellbeing of the actual come before the rights and wellbeing of the potential.

I'm done.