I am antiabortion because I am an atheist

[cyberateos]

Science has not demonstrated that an only inmaterial soul exists.

Really, brain is the only "soul" that exists.

A human brain is similar one day before delivery and the day after delivery.

Then, delivery should not be considered birthday anymore.

For that reason, a Fetal Civil Registration should be established and abortionist mothers should be sent to jail.

WARNING:
English is not my mother language.

[PipeBox]

Well, that doesn't exactly follow, now does it?  First off, no one is pro-abortion, it'd be great if they never had to happen, but when the life of the mother is at significant risk, or when the child is hopelessly deformed (no skull, for example, or whose legs are growing into their heart), I think it needs to be there as an option.

Next, you clearly think the brain is equal to a soul, which I understand.  But do you think a few neurons are equal to a human brain?  Is 1/100 of your brain comparable to a brain, to you?  What about before there is any neuronal tissue at all?  It is true that a baby's brain the day before birth is almost exactly like a baby's brain after birth, but we don't abort babies in the last trimester unless the mother is at grave risk, anyway.

Finally, you want to redefine murder to be from the moment of conception on, correct?  25% of all pregnancies end in miscarriages, so is that manslaughter?  And what should be the sentence for a woman who self-aborts?  How long do you want to imprison them?

[DIY 1138]

Deleted by poster

[cyberateos]

Pipebox:

Well, that doesn't exactly follow, now does it? First off, no one is pro-abortion,

Why not?  Your word imply a moral doubt. If an embryo or a fetus were so valuable as sperm, why not to promote abortion?

it'd be great if they never had to happen, but when the life of the mother is at significant risk, or when the child is hopelessly deformed (no skull, for example, or whose legs are growing into their heart), I think it needs to be there as an option.

You referred to cases with attenuating circumstances. I believe that you would be more honest if you referred to cases with aggravating circumstances, for example, a rich and healthy woman with a healthy full term fetus with a cleft palate.

Next, you clearly think the brain is equal to a soul, which I understand. But do you think a few neurons are equal to a human brain? Is 1/100 of your brain comparable to a brain, to you?

If a person may be discriminated for his/her lesser brain capacity, should Einstein had the right to take a gun and kill a "normal" man?

What about before there is any neuronal tissue at all? It is true that a baby's brain the day before birth is almost exactly like a baby's brain after birth, but we don't abort babies in the last trimester unless the mother is at grave risk, anyway.

Unfortunately, some women and doctors have killed babies in the last trimester for futile reasons. Do you have knowledge about Morin Clinic in Barcelona?

Finally, you want to redefine murder to be from the moment of conception on, correct?

No. From the moment when the blastocyst is implanted. But, as a starting point, at least let`s establish an international Fetal Civil Registration in the 13 th week.

25% of all pregnancies end in miscarriages, so is that manslaughter?

In USA, some women have been punished because or her cocaine consumption when pregnant that has damaged the fetus.

And what should be the sentence for a woman who self-aborts? How long do you want to imprison them?

If a 13th week Fetal Registration were implemented, the supposed father and the supposed mother (right now, there are pregnant women who are not biological mothers) would be legally forced to sign a document where their paterhood were informed. They would be warned about that to kill that registered baby would be punished as a murder.

[cyberateos]

DIY:

In a sanitised black and white world, I agree, abortion is wrong. The trouble is, and I don't want to
sound condescending, the world is a messy F upped place. Here is a story that appeared recently; Vatican Backs Excommunications Stemming From an Abortion
(I hope I did that right).
There are so many victims in this story, and it illustrates, as the saying goes, the (catholic) law is an ass. Really tragic.

I will say to you the same that I said to Pipebox: you will seem more honest if you include not only cases with attenuanting circumstances, but also cases with aggravating circumstances.

Abortion must always be a personal choice. There will always be some women who for reasons of their own want to end their pregnancy.

There are also men with reasons to end a marriage, but men who kill a wife are locked in jail.

If a fetus is a part of a family, abortion is domestic violence and it has to be punished according to it.

The question becomes, under what conditions will it be done; in a hospital under the care of a doctor, or in a back room with a hangar?

Jack the Ripper commited his crimes in dark street. Should society have build special rooms to help him (and other serial killers) to murder comfortably?

Even the wrost criminals have human rights, but an extremist approach of that rights means complicity.

[curiosityandthecat]

Here we go again.  

[rlrose328]

Science has not demonstrated that an only inmaterial soul exists.

Really, brain is the only "soul" that exists.

A human brain is similar one day before delivery and the day after delivery.

Then, delivery should not be considered birthday anymore.

For that reason, a Fetal Civil Registration should be established and abortionist mothers should be sent to jail.

WARNING:
English is not my mother language.

The brain is not a "soul" no matter how many times people, usu. Christians, say it is.  The human brain is synopses and electrical activity.  Period.

I am not in favor of abortion at all, but I will not protest it nor will I vote to ban it.  It's not my place to say what a woman can and can't do with her body.  In a perfect world, the father would be involved in the process and women would carry babies to term and give them to other families to raise if they don't want them.  Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world.  It's messy and sometimes people have to do desperate acts to survive.

I am not pro-abortion.  I am not rounding up pregnant women and teens and rushing them into abortion clinics after brainwashing them into doing so.  I am pro-choice.  I could say that you are anti-though and anti-choice and anti-woman and anti-civil rights for the stance you take, but I won't.

Mothers are not the abortionists... the doctors who perform the abortions are technically the abortionists.  Should we jail them too?  What about the father?  The one who participated in the fertilization... jail him as well?

[cyberateos]

The brain is not a "soul" no matter how many times people, usu. Christians, say it is. The human brain is synopses and electrical activity. Period.

Of course. For that reason, I used quotation marks: "soul".

I am not in favor of abortion at all,

Why? If you are not if favor on abortion, then you have a moral conflict.

but I will not protest it nor will I vote to ban it.

You continue having a moral problem here because of your contradiction.

It's not my place to say what a woman can and can't do with her body.

Are you saying that a woman may use her hands to strangulate another woman, or her genitalia to induce children to masturbate her?

 Don`t you believe that male and female right over their bodies have limits?

In a perfect world, the father would be involved in the process and women would carry babies to term and give them to other families to raise if they don't want them. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world.

But we have to indend to live in a perfect world.

It's messy and sometimes people have to do desperate acts to survive.

Are you saying that an unemployeed man should have the right to kill to steal money?

I am not pro-abortion.

Why?

I am not rounding up pregnant women and teens and rushing them into abortion clinics after brainwashing them into doing so.

Why not?

 I promote condom use among teenagers.

I am pro-choice. I could say that you are anti-though and anti-choice and anti-woman and anti-civil rights for the stance you take, but I won't.

What about the choice of the fetal person? What about his/her civil rights?

Mothers are not the abortionists... the doctors who perform the abortions are technically the abortionists. Should we jail them too? What about the father? The one who participated in the fertilization... jail him as well?

The doctor is a mercenary and should be punished too.

The father of the fetal baby should be punished only if he has knowledge about the abortion projects of his wife/girlfriend and does not report it to Police.

[curiosityandthecat]

cyberateos, preference + empathy /= cognitive dissonance.

[cyberateos]

Curios:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

[PipeBox]

First off, your English is superb!  

Why not?  Your word imply a moral doubt. If an embryo or a fetus were so valuable as sperm, why not to promote abortion?

No moral doubt, I was trying to nudge you in the direction of your logic, an argument of reductio ad absurdum.  Specifically, the argument that a baby he day before birth looks almost the same as the day after, where you infer that it looked almost the same the day before that, and then the day before that, and so on, and this works in both directions.  The argument that you can see no difference between any two given days so that means abortion is akin to killing a full grown adult (the implication I get while reading your post, presumably why you want jail time for these women) is not logical.  There are pronounced differences over time, and while deciding a cut off point for anything may be arbitrary, that is not to say that all points are equal.

You referred to cases with attenuating circumstances. I believe that you would be more honest if you referred to cases with aggravating circumstances, for example, a rich and healthy woman with a healthy full term fetus with a cleft palate.

I absolutely did not suggest any woman with a fetus having a cleft palate should be aborted.  I do, however, like that you made it a rich woman.  This implies you think there would be an argument to be made if she lived in a diseased, poverty-filled slum.  I do not endorse such an argument, I would bring a child to term even in a slum, but I still think the choice should remain with the mother.  Anyway, the extreme circumstances I mentioned you did not account for in your original post, and surely these alone justify legal abortion.

If a person may be discriminated for his/her lesser brain capacity, should Einstein had the right to take a gun and kill a "normal" man?

Again, reductio ad absurdum, and a bad analogy.  If Einstein had a brain-dead son on life support that he was paying for, where he had full medical authority for the son, he could definitely have the plug pulled.  Einstein, on the other hand, does not get to "abort" any other brain-dead children, and he doesn't get to murder people on the street.  If Einstein found he had a nerve tumor possessing 1/100th the neurons in his brain, he could have it removed.  The part that offends your sensibilities is that the fetus will eventually become a person, assuming it won't die in term.  But is it a person yet?  There's a legitimate question to be asked there, that I have no easy solution for.  And that's why I'm content to say that I would never endorse abortion of my offspring, unless there were serious complications, but I do not presume to have the moral authority to deny anyone else their right to choose.

Unfortunately, some women and doctors have killed babies in the last trimester for futile reasons. Do you have knowledge about Morin Clinic in Barcelona?

I do not.  But there are still cannibalistic tribes in the world, and I don't use them to justify cannibalism.  I do not vote in Barcelona, I do not endorse Barcelona's needless third trimester abortions.

No. From the moment when the blastocyst is implanted. But, as a starting point, at least let`s establish an international Fetal Civil Registration in the 13 th week.

No objections, given the existence of the FCR.

In USA, some women have been punished because or her cocaine consumption when pregnant that has damaged the fetus.

I do not necessarily agree with the law, either.  In any case, how things are is not an argument for how they ought to be.  Presumably these women brought their fetuses to term, yes?  If they had aborted them immediately there would be no legal implications, but when you bring a child into the world who is damaged because of your actions, then it is open to a judge to decide if you are in opposition to child protection laws.  You are dealing with a wrong that is manifest in a person, now, rather than a wrong in something that has no cognitive function and can't feel pain.  Again, the grounds are too blurry for me to say we should strip women of abortion.

If a 13th week Fetal Registration were implemented, the supposed father and the supposed mother (right now, there are pregnant women who are not biological mothers) would be legally forced to sign a document where their paterhood were informed. They would be warned about that to kill that registered baby would be punished as a murder.

Then a woman that falls down the stairs may be guilty of manslaughter or murder.  If she is found guilty of neither, then I know what the new method of abortion will be: accidents.  So, how do you feel about potentially imprisoning women who had an honest-to-god (forgive the term) accident and killed her much-beloved child-in-progress?  Does that sound in the spirit of the law to you?

[Will]

Science has not demonstrated that an only inmaterial soul exists.

Really, brain is the only "soul" that exists.

A human brain is similar one day before delivery and the day after delivery.

Interesting. At what point can a brain be considered a brain? We don't go from sperm meeting egg to having a brain, after all. Does two cells of gray matter in the first trimester constitute a brain? Or perhaps the most basic brain functions during the second trimester? Or ability to move? Or ability to interact? This is not a simple matter.

[curiosityandthecat]

Curios:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Precisely. What rlrose328 was expressing is not cognitive dissonance. It's personal preference altered by empathy. An example of cognitive dissonance would be what a theist experiences when confronted with hard, tangible evidence against literal Biblical stories. rlrose328's statement was akin to someone saying that they would really like a Big Mac if it were available, but since all we have are Whoppers, she'll have to settle for that..

[PipeBox]

... but since all we have are Whoppers, she'll have to settle for that..

One does not "settle" for Whoppers, heretic.

[cyberateos]

PipeBox:

First off, your English is superb!

Thanks. Saint Google is helping me.

but I still think the choice should remain with the mother.

Are you saying that a rich and healthy woman should have the right to kill her healthy full term baby? Do you agree that you are implicitly promoting pederastia (a raped baby or an aborted baby are similar)?

Einstein, on the other hand, does not get to "abort" any other brain-dead children, and he doesn't get to murder people on the street. If Einstein found he had a nerve tumor possessing 1/100th the neurons in his brain, he could have it removed.

Compared to Einstein`s brain, some brains could be similar to a 1/100 th neurons.

I believe that having a more developed brain does not mean to have a license to kill.

The part that offends your sensibilities is that the fetus will eventually become a person, assuming it won't die in term. But is it a person yet? There's a legitimate question to be asked there, that I have no easy solution for. And that's why I'm content to say that I would never endorse abortion of my offspring, unless there were serious complications, but I do not presume to have the moral authority to deny anyone else their right to choose.

You stance is similar to that of some person in the slave traders age: "I would not have a black slave, but I respect the idea of persons who have black slaves".