I am antiabortion because I am an atheist

[VanReal]

VanReal said:

There is no "essence" or inherent value in a fetus, it is a fantastic and interesting, amaing even, division of cells that grows and matures into a human being if born.

Nothing remotely humorous about comparing a person with a mental disorder or mood disorder to a self-induced alcohol rage.

Of course, she is doing comparisons that help her to hold her stance, but that comparisons are often schizoid.

She is avoiding the correct comparisons:

A fetal minor and a newborn are members of a family, and if they are killed by another member of that family, as their mother, she should be punished exactly as a man who has killed his wife is.

I was doing a response to the previous post, but it's pointless.  As far as this one is concerned:

I am not doing comparisons, YOU are.  I am stating point blank and in plain language that a FETUS IS NOT A HUMAN BEING.

And I will not post on this thread again because all of my responses are a direct result of your statements and comparisons and you are flippant and either very ill-informed or seriously deficient in the ability to comprehend information.

If you are real all I can say is thankfully your voice and opinion would never have an impact on any policy, law, or social contract because there is no useful material in it, and the hidden agenda is in the open.

[cyberateos]

VanReal:

I am stating point blank and in plain language that a FETUS IS NOT A HUMAN BEING

.

A fetus is "a human being who is lodged into a womb".

Period.

[cyberateos]

Here, after more than one hundred messages, I will repeat my original message:



Science has not demonstrated that an only inmaterial soul exists.

Really, brain is the only "soul" that exists.

A human brain is similar one day before delivery and the day after delivery.

Then, delivery should not be considered birthday anymore.

For that reason, a Fetal Civil Registration should be established and abortionist mothers should be sent to jail.

[Whitney]

Here, after more than one hundred messages, I will repeat my original message:



Science has not demonstrated that an only inmaterial soul exists.

Really, brain is the only "soul" that exists.

A human brain is similar one day before delivery and the day after delivery.

Then, delivery should not be considered birthday anymore.

For that reason, a Fetal Civil Registration should be established and abortionist mothers should be sent to jail.

And in just restating what you already said you are ignoring that over half of us did not necessarily support third trimester abortions.  In other words, you haven't been paying attention to anything we have said!  Your Fetal Civil Registration plan is extreme for numerous reasons and would take away the right of women to choose the type of medical care they receive while pregnant.  For instance, those who prefer natural birth away from a hospital would not have that choice.  Those who are able to get all the vitamins they need from quality food would have folic acid pills shoved down their throats.  Those who think it is immoral to not abort a severely physically or mentally damaged fetus would be forced to carry to term.  In essence, you'd be making women into baby making machines who have no individual rights until they deliver.  But, you don't seem to care much for women so I guess you think us being baby making machines is our purpose.  Barefoot, pregnant, and cooking....right?  

Let's take your idea to where it leads us.  Men, sorry you can't masturbate anymore.  Remember, every tiny sperm is a potential life and we can't destroy one tiny potential life.  What, a sperm can't become life without meeting an egg?  We know that, but it's still potential life and must be protected.  The sperm can't have any thoughts?  Doesn't matter, it's still potential life and needs protection.  If you know a woman is ovulating it is your social duty transfer your potential life giving sperm to her so that they may develop as nature intended.  Men and women who refuse these transfers will be charged with the murder of humans since potentiality has now been defined as "human" by fascist Fetal Civil Registration police.  Within 10 years we are so overpopulated that the majority of people are homeless due to the construction industry not being able to build houses to meet the every increasing population.

Case in point, even if your ideas were philosophically sound (which they are not) they are not practical solutions.  They would cause much more suffering than you think they prevent.

[cyberateos]

Whitney:

And in just restating what you already said you are ignoring that over half of us did not necessarily support third trimester abortions.

Would you believe that a woman and doctor who have done a third trimester aborion should be punished as murderers?

Your Fetal Civil Registration plan is extreme for numerous reasons and would take away the right of women to choose the type of medical care they receive while pregnant. For instance, those who prefer natural birth away from a hospital would not have that choice.

Why not? On the countrary: persons who practice natural deliveries would be closely monitored. :|

Remember: to be intellectualy dishonest is not only offensive for both you and the other person, but it makes difficult to debate.

I suggest you to avoid all kind of fallacies.

But, you don't seem to care much for women so I guess you think us being baby making machines is our purpose. Barefoot, pregnant, and cooking....right?  

Strawman`s fallacy.

Newly, I will say: please be intellectualy honest.

I could say that "surely you want that abortion be legal because you are a part of a maffia who traficks with fetal organs", but that paranoid affirmation would be to descend to your level.

We are person with a brain. Are not we? Let`s use it. :brick:


 

What, a sperm can't become life without meeting an egg? We know that, but it's still potential life and must be protected. The sperm can't have any thoughts? Doesn't matter, it's still potential life and needs protection. If you know a woman is ovulating it is your social duty transfer your potential life giving sperm to her so that they may develop as nature intended.

A seven month fetus is more similar to a premature 7 month newborn than to a sperm or ovum. Your comparisons are wrong. My comparisons are right.            

[VanReal]

[DIY 1138]

Deleted by poster

[rlrose328]

Remember: pro abortion arguments may be easily reverted.

NO ONE is PRO-abortion.  NO ONE.  That implies that we WANT women to have abortions, that we are escorting them to the abortion clinics.

We are PRO-choice.  Please refrain from deceptive and inflammatory statements.

[cyberateos]

Whitney,
 May I point out that cyberateos has a history of being a troll?
 A search of cyberateos yeilded two results: cyberateos.org that appears to be on the up and up.
 Cyberateos.com directed me to another atheist forum where he initiated a topic titled, you guessed it,
 I am antiabortion because I am an atheist. The sumary lists him as one of the worst trolls
 they have ever had. Just wondering if you knew. I don't think this guy is ever going to stop.

I met Whitney in another forum, "Thinkthank".

If all you don`t want to continue this debate, let`s declare it finished.
 
No problem. Nobody is forcing you tu participate.

[cyberateos]

Remember: pro abortion arguments may be easily reverted.

NO ONE is PRO-abortion.  NO ONE.  That implies that we WANT women to have abortions, that we are escorting them to the abortion clinics.

We are PRO-choice.  Please refrain from deceptive and inflammatory statements.

a) If abortion is not murder, why not to be pro abortion? (it helps to reduce overpopulation)  

Those are the questions... TO BE OR NOT TO BE...

[rlrose328]

I believe that the word "abortion" should dissapear in the next year, to be sustituted by other words such as: spermaticide, blastocistide, embryocide, feticide, etc.

So it would be illegal to masturbate?  That is technically spermaticide as the sperm cannot live outside the body.  YOu're taking this way too far.  Why does a blastocyte have more rights than the mother?

In a first period, all 13 week fetuses should be registered and considered "legally born" worldwide. A country who would refuse to establish that registration, would suffer punishments.

Have you been pregnant?  Have you gotten a woman pregnant?  Why are you so involved in the life of fetuses?  If a country refuses to be so repressive as this, they would suffer punishments?  What, put to death the leaders or something?  Wow.  You'll also have to come up with some publically-funded birth control program... more than just teens with condoms.  If you are going to mandate what women can and cannot do with their reproductive organs, will you mandate sterility for those who abort or indicate they might abort?

Really, both lives are equally important, but  don`t forget the mother has parental duties toward her offspring (intrauterine or extrauterine).

True... and if she determines that for whatever reason, she cannot be a mother, she has the right to do something about it, hopefully before week 21.  

No. Law normally requires two medical opinions, but, for example, in Argentina, those cases become so popular, that virtually the entire country is a "ethics board".

While I'm not happy with the business of the medical profession here in America, I do NOT want the general public acting as an ethics board either.  With the reglious repression here, it would be horrible.

If a mother who has delivered a baby refuses to register it, she is punished. Is not she? Also, a man who refuses to pay money after a divorce is punished.

But really doctors who care for the mother would have the duty to report the existence of that fetus. Signing a document would be an aditional step for the supposed father and the supposed mother.

I don't think that the lack of a birth certificate for a baby born in America is cause for punishment, no.  If a man refuses to pay his wife money after a divorce, if such an agreement was reached (which is not the case at all for ALL divorces), then yes, he is pursued for the money, but I don't know about punishment except in longterm lack of payment.  

Doctor's should report the existence of a child, especially if he thinks the child is in danger due to mistreatment by the caregiver, but before birth?  Nope.  This would lead to horrible trauma should the mother lose the fetus at some point.  IT's hard enough to lose a child due to spontaneous abortion without a stack of legal paperwork, etc.  Also, insurance companies don't see the fetus as a person until after it's born.

Ha, ha... Post partum depression has been used as a "crime of psychiatry" to support the feminazi lobby to get impunity. Both, feminazis and Mengeles psychiatrists should be sent to a penal colony.

So... you don't believe that women actually suffer from postpartum depression?  It's a "crime of psychiatry"?  I'm not surprised, coming from a man from a Latin country where men rule with an iron fist and women are subservient.  I suffered from postpartum depression, though mine wasn't very bad.  It's a clinical thing, my friend... hormones are at an all-time high when a woman is pregnant... wild hormone shifts commonplace during pregnancy.  After birth, as the hormones re-adjust, emotions are a roller-coaster of up and downs.  Most women handle them just fine, with only a little teariness.  But others are affected horribly by the shift.  Were you a woman who could conceive and carry a fetus to birth, you might understand this.  The fact that you refer to "feminazis" shows what little empathy you have for women and conception and their resultant issues.

Murderers use to be coward people. If potential abortionist mothers and doctors are sure that they will go to an electric chair if they kill a fetal baby, they won`t kill even a fly.

Again, why does the fetus have more rights than the mother?  What if carrying the fetus to birth would put her life in danger?  And that example I gave of the 8yo girl who was carrying twins which were aborted (and the mother was excommunicated from the Church for)?  Would THAT be an exceptable abortion?  And spontaneous abortion... you'd want an autopsy to ensure there was no curretage or scissor marks?

[rlrose328]

She may give them to State to canalize them to abortion.

But that woman should be forced to pay money to help the adopter, exactly as a divorced man is forced to pay money to rise his children.

Wow... in Cyperateosland, no one will ever have sex again.

[cyberateos]

So it would be illegal to masturbate? That is technically spermaticide as the sperm cannot live outside the body. YOu're taking this way too far. Why does a blastocyte have more rights than the mother?

You have had two mistakes:

a) To say that I want spermaticide punished

b) To say that I want blastocystide punished

Really, I promote spermaticide and balstocystide. Those are two points that make my stance very different of that of the Pope. :upset:

Have you been pregnant? Have you gotten a woman pregnant? Why are you so involved in the life of fetuses?

Excuse me. My private life is my private life.

 

If a country refuses to be so repressive as this, they would suffer punishments? What, put to death the leaders or something? Wow.

Probably echonomical punishment could be applied. Remember Iraq.

You'll also have to come up with some publically-funded birth control program... more than just teens with condoms. If you are going to mandate what women can and cannot do with their reproductive organs, will you mandate sterility for those who abort or indicate they might abort?

Right. Forced surgical sterilisation could be applied instead of a jail period, just as it is done with rapists in some countries.

True... and if she determines that for whatever reason, she cannot be a mother, she has the right to do something about it, hopefully before week 21.

Why are not you direct? Your words "to do SOMETHING about it" instead of "commit a cruel murder against her baby" are not from a valiant person.

While I'm not happy with the business of the medical profession here in America, I do NOT want the general public acting as an ethics board either. With the reglious repression here, it would be horrible.

You refuse democracy when it is not convenient for you, ha, ha...

Doctor's should report the existence of a child, especially if he thinks the child is in danger due to mistreatment by the caregiver, but before birth? Nope.

It is wrong. Let`s extend that protection to intrauterine stage.

This would lead to horrible trauma should the mother lose the fetus at some point. IT's hard enough to lose a child due to spontaneous abortion without a stack of legal paperwork, etc.

If an extrauterine child dies, the mother and the father are forced to support that circumstances. Let`s do the same when an intrauterine child is dead.

Also, insurance companies don't see the fetus as a person until after it's born.

Let`s promote that they begin to include fetal persons.

So... you don't believe that women actually suffer from postpartum depression? It's a "crime of psychiatry"?

Lots criminal men were depressed when they commited their crimes, but they have been punished.

I'm not surprised, coming from a man from a Latin country where men rule with an iron fist and women are subservient

Strawman`s fallacy; argumentum ad hominem fallacy...

I suffered from postpartum depression, though mine wasn't very bad. It's a clinical thing, my friend... hormones are at an all-time high when a woman is pregnant... wild hormone shifts commonplace during pregnancy. After birth, as the hormones re-adjust, emotions are a roller-coaster of up and downs. Most women handle them just fine, with only a little teariness. But others are affected horribly by the shift. Were you a woman who could conceive and carry a fetus to birth, you might understand this.

Rapiests and serial killers use to have much testosterone, but they are punished. Remember the Boston`s Strangulator.

What if carrying the fetus to birth would put her life in danger?

What if providing chemotherapy to the baby carrier puts the life of the baby in danger?

 

And that example I gave of the 8yo girl who was carrying twins which were aborted (and the mother was excommunicated from the Church for)? Would THAT be an exceptable
abortion?

8yo girl? Surely you misunderstood. Probably a 12 year girl was raped and could be aided in her pregnancy. Some of my neighbors have been pregnant while being virtually children and they have delivered their babies.

And spontaneous abortion... you'd want an autopsy to ensure there was no curretage or scissor marks?

Exactly. If we, adult persons, have post mortem rights, why should not a fetal person have its own?

[rlrose328]

For the most part, I am truly done with this thread.  I can't stand the crap being posted.  However, I am going to respond to this one issue:

And that example I gave of the 8yo girl who was carrying twins which were aborted (and the mother was excommunicated from the Church for)? Would THAT be an exceptable
abortion?

8yo girl? Surely you misunderstood. Probably a 12 year girl was raped and could be aided in her pregnancy. Some of my neighbors have been pregnant while being virtually children and they have delivered their babies.

No, I meant 8yo girl, but it turns out I was wrong.  She was 9 years old, and her stepfather admitted to abusing her for 3 years.  She was pregnant with twins and every medical professional who commented on the case stated that the pregnancy could kill her due to her age and the fact that her body and frame cannot physically support a single pregnancy much less a multiple pregnancy.  In Brazil, where the case happened, abortion is illegal except in cases of rape or when the mother's life is threatened.  The doctors believed both applied in this case.  

How like religion to condemn the doctors and the girl's mother (but NOT the stepfather) for having the fetuses aborted because a) the pregnancy was not her choice or fault and 2) she could die if the fetuses were allowed to grow.  

Would you REALLY condemn the doctors, the girl's mother and the girl for this abortion?

(I'll read your answer, but I'll no longer be replying here... I just can't do this anymore.)

[SSY]

I agree that physiologically speaking, a 13 week fetus, and 13 week baby are the same, but there is more to consider.

A fetus is part of the mother, it is a ball of cells inside her, that gains all nutrition directly from her blood stream. By telling her when she can and cannot have abortions, you are telling her what she can and cannot do with her body, and her body alone. This is the difference. Once seperated, they are two seperate people, when together, there is only one person.

Further to your argument, that a fetus one day before, and one day after birth is the same, a fetus 12 weeks and 6 days old is the same a fetus 13 weeks old, why does one get protection and the other not?

This thread reminds me of something Will said a while ago, anti abortion supporters don't really care about babies, they just want to punish promiscuity. The massive misogynist bent of this thread pays testamanet to that.


(For the record, I think deterrence does work, and the high prison population is not a refutation, becuase we dont know how many of those people outside of prison would have committed crimes were it not for the law. Just like when your momma hit you for doing stuff wrong )