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#91

Science / Re: Not science as such but . ...

Last post by Recusant - June 22, 2026, 01:58:24 AM

Proposed: Copernican principle of consciousness. More philosophy than science, but perhaps science adjacent.

"Consciousness likely not unique to earthlings, paper says" | UC Riverside News

Does consciousness depend on flesh and blood?

The answer is almost certainly no, according to Eric Schwitzgebel, a distinguished professor of philosophy at the University of California, Riverside.

In a new working paper, Schwitzgebel and Jeremy Pober, a former UCR graduate student who is now a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Lisbon, assert that consciousness is likely possible in life forms made of much different stuff. Think of the five-limbed alien with a rock-like exterior in the recent blockbuster movie "Project Hail Mary."

Schwitzgebel and Pober do not attempt to define consciousness. Instead, they proceed from the premise that it's a real and recognizable phenomenon, and pose a narrower question: Must it be tied to the biology found on Earth?

The paper comes at a time when the prospect of conscious artificial intelligence looms large, fueling utopian dreams and dystopian nightmares. The authors, who touch just briefly on the matter, do not take a firm position either way — and, in fact, diverge in their views. But the arguments they advance leave open the possibility that AI could be conscious, though perhaps not in its current form.

At the heart of the paper's argument is the philosophical notion of "substrate flexibility." As the authors explain it, a "target property," such as being a cup, is substrate flexible if it can be achieved with different kinds of materials. A cup is substrate flexible; it can be made with glass, plastic, or many other substances. Similarly, a book can be printed on paper or stored electronically, and a records can be encoded on vinyl or on compact discs.

Consciousness, Schwitzgebel and Pober argue, is also substrate flexible.

"The universe may contain minds stranger than we can imagine," Schwitzgebel said.

The observable part of the universe contains about 1 trillion galaxies. Planets are common, and the great majority have environments quite different than Earth's, astronomers believe.

For the purposes of their argument, Schwitzgebel and Pober estimate that at least 1,000 behaviorally sophisticated, extraterrestrial civilizations have existed at some point in the cosmos. It's a conservative estimate, they say, noting that "one recent survey found median scientific estimates over one civilization per galaxy at some point in that galaxy's lifetime."

[. . .]

The authors' key argument turns on the Copernican tradition in astronomy. The Renaissance polymath Nicolaus Copernicus and his heirs made a humbling series of discoveries: Earth is not the center of the solar system, the solar system is not the center of the galaxy, and the Milky Way is not the center of the universe. In other words, humanity occupies a less exceptional position in the cosmos than once imagined.

Schwitzgebel and Pober extend this lesson to consciousness: To wit, it probably isn't special.

Assuming there are many behaviorally sophisticated species in the universe with different biological structures, the authors argue that it would amount to a form of "terrocentrism"— unjustified treatment of Earth life as uniquely privileged — to believe consciousness belongs only to organisms like us. The authors coin a phrase, "the Copernican principle of consciousness," to describe this idea.

They don't claim, however, that every advanced life form must be conscious. Rather, they argue that if consciousness exists among behaviorally sophisticated beings, it would be strange to think that only organisms sharing our biochemical architecture could possess it.

[Continues . . .]

The paper is open access:

"Substrate Flexibility and the Copernican Principle of Consciousness" | University of Lisbon

Abstract:

We present a novel argument for the substrate flexibility of consciousness – that is, for the idea that conscious experiences can arise in a variety of different types of physical media, not just in biological animals as they currently exist on Earth.

Some recent critiques of standard arguments for the substrate flexibility of consciousness (e.g., Cao 2022; Block 2025; Seth forthcoming) have emphasized that humanlike consciousness might require our specific biological substrate. However, such critiques are too narrowly focused to address the issue of consciousness in entities whose experience may be very different from ours, for example alien life forms or future AI systems designed along unfamiliar lines.

Given that it's likely that functionally complex, behaviorally sophisticated entities have arisen or will arise many times in the observable universe, in diverse substrates, we argue that it would be a violation of a principle of Copernican mediocrity to hold that among these diverse entities, only we, or only we and a small proportion of others who share our substrate, are conscious.

#92

Science / Re: The "Mysterious" Physicali...

Last post by zorkan - June 20, 2026, 01:34:13 PM

I had forgotten, as most people do, the novelist George Eliot.
Like Shakespeare, he was born in Warwickshire (Nuneaton to be more precise).
He wrote novels like The Mill On The Floss and Middlemarch.
The latter has been described by many sources as the greatest ever British novel.
I haven't read it, but I know that down the road from me in Stratford-upon-Avon the Royal Shakespeare Company are performing it soon.

Except that Eliot was a she, Mary Ann Evans.

There was Homer. He may have been one or more author.

Many doubt that William Shakespeare was the author of the plays and poems.
He never spelt his name that way in any surviving document.
Shakespeare's works may have been written by women, such as Emilia Bassano or Mary Sidney, Countess of Pembroke.

Don't forget other masters of the English language. 
John Milton, Thomas Hardy, Charles Dickens.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44746/sonnet-23-methought-i-saw-my-late-espoused-saint

#93

Pseudo-science, Conspiracy Theories, and Other Loads of Bull / Re: God, aliens and Nick Pope.

Last post by zorkan - June 20, 2026, 01:09:23 PM

But surely, having crossed the vast expanse of time and space, any alien intelligence would want to practice their art work in some way as a sort of calling card in the English countryside.

But why Wiltshire?
Well, Stonehenge is at the intersection of many ley lines, which alien spacecraft use as their form of Satnav.

You can see here that 14 of these (not so straight) lines converge of the stones.

https://blog.stonehenge-stone-circle.co.uk/2020/02/06/stonehenge-ley-lines-and-earth-energies-why-does-it-attract-new-agers/

I won't be there for the summer solstice drumming and chanting celebrations tonight.
Only in spirit.

#94

Religion / Re: Who Would Have Thought?

Last post by Recusant - June 19, 2026, 07:15:06 PM

Another entry in the catalog of horrors. Abuse is a human thing, but religion provides a convenient framework with its power structure and claims of connection to divinity. Acknowledging that organized atheism isn't immune. Humans don't need the help of gods to be arseholes. On the other hand gods seem to facilitate it.

We've heard the story time and again. This one isn't outstanding or memorable in my opinion. Honestly I haven't read the whole article and can't recommend it. Not because of the reporting but because of the subject matter.

"In This Church, Child Sexual Abuse Has Gone Unchecked for So Long That It Spans Generations" | Pro Publica

They were pillars of their church, congregants in a little-known denomination that sets itself apart from the world and teaches that even the most unconscionable acts can be wiped away — not just forgiven, but forgotten and never spoken of again.

"Pillars of their church." Of course they were. 

#95

Pseudo-science, Conspiracy Theories, and Other Loads of Bull / Re: God, aliens and Nick Pope.

Last post by Recusant - June 19, 2026, 05:23:48 PM

To me it seems likely that elsewhere in the Universe there are other species who think and communicate. It also seems extremely unlikely that they've travelled to visit this planet. The evidence in support of that hypothesis is poor at best.

#96

Pseudo-science, Conspiracy Theories, and Other Loads of Bull / Re: God, aliens and Nick Pope.

Last post by zorkan - June 19, 2026, 12:38:13 PM

Those mysterious flying orbs have been spotted again flying over crop fields in Wiltshire and adjacent Somerset.

Could it be?
Alien art work.
Human art work.
The tourist board.
Farmers profiting.
Possibly all four.

https://temporarytemples.co.uk/crop-circles/2026-crop-circles

Head south with beads around my neck for this one.
Might also take in the summer solstice at Stonehenge in Wiltshire to make a perfect weekend.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/amazing-crop-circle-appears-field-160000088.html

Even Nick Pope thinks that crop circles are "virtually all man made."

I see he's still UFO hunting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZLA0pMTO5E

After a bit over 7 minutes he goes to Llandrillo in mid Wales.
I had stayed there once in the 1970's and heard nothing about it.

#97

Laid Back Lounge / Re: Spain, Portugal, Morocco

Last post by hermes2015 - June 18, 2026, 06:24:39 AM

well i dunno shit about imgbb, but that is an exceptional image.
....

Thanks! It was one of a series of reference photos I took for a painting of Clivias I did some time ago.

#98

Laid Back Lounge / Re: Spain, Portugal, Morocco

Last post by billy rubin - June 18, 2026, 01:12:05 AM

ah

better.

^^this.

weve got some amish roofers re-doing our decreprit roof, and part of the deal was that they re-pillar the front porch.  so theyve sawn off the front of thev100 year old porch, re-supported the roof with 6 x 6 timbers, and im bemused st the really shitty 100 year old construction.

friday i pay them for the roof and the give me an estimate for re-flooring the front porch.

#99

Laid Back Lounge / Re: Spain, Portugal, Morocco

Last post by billy rubin - June 18, 2026, 01:11:07 AM

https://postimg.cc/RNzK1pgv

im trying to get the image to appear directly

[billy rubin]

#100

Laid Back Lounge / Re: Spain, Portugal, Morocco

Last post by Recusant - June 18, 2026, 12:55:33 AM

Certainly imgur's site is a bit easier to navigate. In my experience the imgbb site works, but doesn't always make it obvious how to get what you want. On the good side of janky, just.  There are other free image hosting sites, billy rubin mentioned postimages already, and there are others. Most of the sites on their list I've never heard of but may be worth checking out.

Good to hear from you hermes! Splendid blooms.