Thought experiment that logically proves existance of your s

[Recusant]

. . . suppose also that, before the lights went on, the state of the entire physical universe was described to them (I agree that there are practical difficulties, but this is a thought experiment). Note that they both would still have to bet at 50-50, for they heard the same description. So they still each gain one bit of new information when the lights go on. Where could this new information be coming from, since, according to physicalism, they have already heard all information contained in the universe.

No, they wouldn't have heard all information contained in the universe, because that would include the color of the room that they were in. The color of the room is information, and you ignore this for the sake of your argument. The colors of each respective room existed in the physical world before the lights were turned on-- this isn't "new" information at all, except to the subjects of the experiment who have not been given "all" information, despite your assertion to the contrary.

The same is true of your "colorless version." The digit is extant on the paper at the start of the experiment, and is not "new" information except to the experimental subjects who have been placed in the rooms. The physical universe contains the information, which the subjects are not aware of until they pick up the pieces of paper.

The argument simply demonstrates that there is extra-physical information.

How? In each of your thought experiments, there is physical information; either the color of the paint in the room, or the digit on the piece of paper in each room.

[Ali]

Okay, I've thought some more about this (in the shower this morning, thankyouverymuch for getting this stuck in my head.)  I think cutting through all of the room colors and binary digits and whatnot, I know what you're trying to do.

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Let's say that they cut Ali down the middle, and from that made two completely identical Ali's, including "implanting" both Ali's brains with every thought, experience, every thing AliPrime's mind has ever soaked up.

Then they woke up AliA and AliB.  How would they know which one is the "real" Ali?  Which one would I be?  Which one would be the real AliPrime that actually had all of the thoughts and experiences that both AliA and AliB now remember?

Is that a better explanation of what you're trying to get us to think about?

(If so, I already have my answer, but I thought I'd make sure that's really what you are trying to get at.)

[tennenrishin]

What point did I miss?

Basically the whole thing, man...
But if you're genuinely interested in understanding the argument, the clearest formulations I can provide at this time are this one and this one. Pick whichever sits better with you. They are quite brief, so pay attention to exactly what is being said.

No need to be snarky.

Thanks. Sorry about that, Ali. I just meant to say that I made an effort to condense the experiment into a small account - perhaps at some expense to readability.

[tennenrishin]

Correct me if I'm wrong: ... ... ...

Thanks for confirming first. What you describe is not, I think, a similar argument. Perhaps the experiment would be easier to imagine if they were just two normal people, who happened to be identical in every respect (memories and all) by fluke. So they have no thoughts about "who is the original" when they are assigned to the rooms.

[Ali]

Correct me if I'm wrong: ... ... ...

Thanks for confirming first. What you describe is not, I think, a similar argument. Perhaps the experiment would be easier to imagine if they were just two normal people, who happened to be identical in every respect (memories and all) by fluke. So they have no thoughts about "who is the original" when they are assigned to the rooms.

Okay.  And then the what is the question?  Is it: 
"How do I know which one is me (if all things are physically identical)?"
or
"How does an outside observer know which one is me (if all things are physically identical)?"
or is it something else?

[AnimatedDirt]

Okay.  And then the what is the question?  Is it:  
"How do I know which one is me (if all things are physically identical)?"
or
"How does an outside observer know which one is me (if all things are physically identical)?"
or is it something else?

Pardon me for just jumping in.  I thought this was interesting...splitting one person into two.

To me it would seem that if you SPLIT a person in two (identical in all points) then EACH person would fully be "You".  However, "You" would cease to be "identical" and each would become individual (from the point of split onwards), or more like twins, where each have a different life and life experience.  In essence, "You" would become "Y'all".

I'm no scientist/philosopher...just my thought.

[Davin]

Okay.  And then the what is the question?  Is it:  
"How do I know which one is me (if all things are physically identical)?"
or
"How does an outside observer know which one is me (if all things are physically identical)?"
or is it something else?

Pardon me for just jumping in.  I thought this was interesting...splitting one person into two.

To me it would seem that if you SPLIT a person in two (identical in all points) then EACH person would fully be "You".  However, "You" would cease to be "identical" and each would become individual (from the point of split onwards), or more like twins, where each have a different life and life experience.  In essence, "You" would become "Y'all".

I'm no scientist/philosopher...just my thought.

I agree with this thought. Which is why I have a problem with the idea of copying my brain into a robotic host, the me it came from would still me from my perspective, and the robot would be someone else, but to other people we would be identical. Sorry for the tangent, but I'd also add that the original me would have something to say about being killed even if the robot me lived on.

[AnimatedDirt]

I agree with this thought.

We agree! 

[Whitney]

I agree with this thought. Which is why I have a problem with the idea of copying my brain into a robotic host, the me it came from would still me from my perspective, and the robot would be someone else, but to other people we would be identical. Sorry for the tangent, but I'd also add that the original me would have something to say about being killed even if the robot me lived on.

There is an episode of stargate where exactly that happened to SG-1.  The robots thought they were the real SG-1 and had all the same memories up to the point when the copy was made.

[Siz]

Wasn't that in Dr Who too?

[Davin]

I agree with this thought.

We agree! 

It's very unlikely that we'd dissagree on everything.

I agree with this thought. Which is why I have a problem with the idea of copying my brain into a robotic host, the me it came from would still me from my perspective, and the robot would be someone else, but to other people we would be identical. Sorry for the tangent, but I'd also add that the original me would have something to say about being killed even if the robot me lived on.

There is an episode of stargate where exactly that happened to SG-1.  The robots thought they were the real SG-1 and had all the same memories up to the point when the copy was made.

One of my favorite episodes, even though the indigenous robot guy irritated me. There was also a follow up episode when the robots started going through the Stargate.

Wasn't that in Dr Who too?

I don't remember one specifically, but I think I remember something similar to it. There was the David Tennant one where he split off, sending one of him to another dimension with Rose, but I don't remember them going as deep into the aspect of duplicates and a sense of self.

[Siz]

Wasn't that in Dr Who too?

I don't remember one specifically, but I think I remember something similar to it. There was the David Tennant one where he split off, sending one of him to another dimension with Rose, but I don't remember them going as deep into the aspect of duplicates and a sense of self.

It was a Tennant episode called 'the rebel flesh / the almost people'. And typically, the show only brushed the surface of the moral dilemma of these [dopel]Gangers believing themselves to BE the originals. Of course to avoid any actual moral decisions being made in the plot, they conveniently turned evil and then died in a horrible environmental catastrophe through no fault of the protagonists. So, justice was served with no blood-on-hands and all's well with the universe...

[Davin]

Wasn't that in Dr Who too?

I don't remember one specifically, but I think I remember something similar to it. There was the David Tennant one where he split off, sending one of him to another dimension with Rose, but I don't remember them going as deep into the aspect of duplicates and a sense of self.

It was a Tennant episode called 'the rebel flesh / the almost people'. And typically, the show only brushed the surface of the moral dilemma of these [dopel]gangers believing themselves to BE the originals. Of course to avoid any actual moral decisions being made in the plot, they conveniently turned evil and then died in a horrible environmental catastrophe through no fault of the protagonists. So, justice was served with no blood-on-hands and all's well with the universe...

Well actually (for the full effect, imagine this said as if I had a clogged nose and a high piched Urkil-like voice), those are Matt Smith episodes from season 6.

I have not yet seen the Matt Smith seasons.

[Whitney]

There was also a stargate atlantis episode where alternative reality McKay came through a rip in space time (actually many similar cases of this on the show).

Anyway, they knew who the other was and could be told apart because one was a jerk and the other wasn't.

[Ali]

Anyway, they knew who the other was and could be told apart because one was a jerk and the other wasn't.

Like the Charles/Chaz conundrum in Charles in Charge!