Molecular Morality?

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Not sure whether to put this in Philosophy or Science.  How a molecule makes us moral:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/27/opinion/zak-moral-molecule/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

[xSilverPhinx]

Interesting article, thanks for the link.

Oxytocin is known as the chemical of bonding, and my dog (female) gets the physical effects after she adopts a toy ball. It's kind of funny actually

[Stevil]

The longest debate since humans have been having debates is whether we are good or evil. It underlies the stories of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Jesus and Judas.

What is our human nature? Of course, the answer is we can be both good and evil. But what determines which part of our character emerges?

I have no belief in morality, or good and evil.
Nothing positive can come from polarising the world in this way.


The article is such a twist. Oxytocin is the happy drug. People do things that make them happy. Morality has nothing to do with it. If you give a child a lolly and that child smiles at you, your brain rewards you with an Oxytocin hit, you feel happy.
For some bullies at school, if you impose your will on a smaller kid, the kid does what you want, maybe even cries, your brain rewards you with an Oxytocin hit, you feel happy (or so I have been told).

[xSilverPhinx]

I read an article a while back about how a team of complete strangers had more oxytocin in their blood after they had played a match together. Just that fact isn't much to go on if you're trying to construct a whole argument on biological chemicals acting on morality, because value systems are a bit more complicated. People feel more bonded...and the rest are consequences. People who share a feeling of comradeship are more likely to act more morally towards eachother.

Stevil, I think you might be confusing oxytocin with dopamine? ???

[Stevil]

Stevil, I think you might be confusing oxytocin with dopamine? ???

Oh, maybe.

I know it is involved in child birth.

Just looked it up

Oxytocin evokes feelings of contentment, reductions in anxiety, and feelings of calmness and security around the mate.[20] Many studies have already shown a correlation of oxytocin with human bonding, increases in trust, and decreases in fear. One study confirmed that there is a positive correlation between oxytocin plasma levels and an anxiety scale measuring the adult romantic attachment.[21] This suggests that oxytocin may be important for the inhibition of brain regions that are associated with behavioral control, fear, and anxiety, thus allowing orgasm to occur.

I still don't see the link to morality.
It could be a dangerous thing. Con-artists use people's trust to deceive and rob people.

[xSilverPhinx]

Stevil, I think you might be confusing oxytocin with dopamine? ???

Oh, maybe.

I know it is involved in child birth.

Just looked it up

Oxytocin evokes feelings of contentment, reductions in anxiety, and feelings of calmness and security around the mate.[20] Many studies have already shown a correlation of oxytocin with human bonding, increases in trust, and decreases in fear. One study confirmed that there is a positive correlation between oxytocin plasma levels and an anxiety scale measuring the adult romantic attachment.[21] This suggests that oxytocin may be important for the inhibition of brain regions that are associated with behavioral control, fear, and anxiety, thus allowing orgasm to occur.

I still don't see the link to morality.
It could be a dangerous thing. Con-artists use people's trust to deceive and rob people.

Con artists also use people's empathy, which is important for being sensitive to another's suffering, to deceive and manipulate people. Looks like there are no exceptions to the rule that whatever can be exploited, will be exploited, even here.

I see morality as partly nature (chemicals and neuromakeup) and partly nurture that only have meaning in a social context. That's why a moral system based solely on molecules/neurological wiring looks a bit far-fetched.

But...in a population where the natural things such as empathy and neurotransmitters such as oxytocin exist in higher frequency, is it far fetched to assume that people would act more morally towards eachother on average (with room for most subjective definitions of what's widely considered moral behaviour) than a population full of con artists?

(I didn't know that Adam Smith was a moral philosopher. I think that guy was onto something there...)

[Stevil]

But...in a population where the natural things such as empathy and neurotransmitters such as oxytocin exist in higher frequency, is it far fetched to assume that people would act more morally towards eachother on average (with room for most subjective definitions of what's widely considered moral behaviour) than a population full of con artists?

Hmmmm,

I don't believe in morality whatsoever so I think it is somewhat dishonest to conclude that people act more morally.
Maybe more empathetical, more supportive...

How can you judge if a person is acting morally? By whose moral standard?
Are gay people acting immoral simply by loving each other? Are responsible adults acting immorally by using contraceptives? Are teenages acting immorally by fantasising about each other?
Would these immoral acts reduce if people had more oxytocin?

[xSilverPhinx]

But...in a population where the natural things such as empathy and neurotransmitters such as oxytocin exist in higher frequency, is it far fetched to assume that people would act more morally towards eachother on average (with room for most subjective definitions of what's widely considered moral behaviour) than a population full of con artists?

Hmmmm,

I don't believe in morality whatsoever so I think it is somewhat dishonest to conclude that people act more morally.
Maybe more empathetical, more supportive...

How can you judge if a person is acting morally? By whose moral standard?
Are gay people acting immoral simply by loving each other? Are responsible adults acting immorally by using contraceptives? Are teenages acting immorally by fantasising about each other?
Would these immoral acts reduce if people had more oxytocin?

Ok, you win this one. I was projecting and objectifying my own moral standards, so...by my standards . Which I share with a lot of people.

But yeah, I can't speak for anybody but myself.

It would have to be on a behavior by behaviour basis (I don't think that thoughts such as fantasizing could ever be immoral, just actions. As for those, there's no harm involved in gay people loving eachother, so that isn't immoral. Contraceptives, no, not immoral.)

For behaviours which are easier to distinguish whether moral or immoral, such as murder, all the natural components of morality definitely do play a part, but are not exclusively necessary. A psychopath could still be taught to act in accordance with generally accepted moral standards, even if they don't feel empathy for others, much less see them as human beings.

[pytheas]

oxytocin activates the dopaminergic system and is part of the chemical machinery for moral weighing alongside mirror neuron systems and !common! sense

there cannot be other than molecular morality, all humans are born atheist but not all  wake to the fact, still morals is a material feature