Holocaust Denial

[brainshmain]

It's absolutely ridiculous what is carried out in the name of religion.  For me, the history of the holocaust, which targeted mainly jews (though others were targetted i.e. Poles, homosexuals, blacks, etc), is important to me because I'm both Polish, and my family growing up was Jewish.  

I accept the culture of Judaism and respect my history, though my belief system is based on the evolutionary theory and atheism.  Anyway, what makes me angrier is the fact that not only did humans commit such atrocities against one another, but the fact that decades later, people continue to deny that humans can cause such harm to one anther.

This link is to a thread on a forum dedicated to White Supremacist singers Prussian Blue.  Their fans are made of up white neo-nazis who both fear and persecute those who are different from them.  Reading this just infuriates me, but I felt I had to show someone.

http://officialprussianblue.net/showthread.php?t=3075

[Asmodean Prime]

dont worry woman the nazis arent after you. those prussians are just a bit fucked up.

[Johndigger]

Well, it's disgusting, of course. The holocaust was a scourge on our history.

However, to add in a little bit of debate, I will say that:

"It's shocking what's carried out in the name of no religion"

*points to communistic persecution of various religious groups*


And I'm sure we can find some nutters willing to deny that, too.


JD,

Disclaimer: Obviously, I am in no way endorsing in any way the holocaust or its denial but if you're going to bash one side of things, you have to consider the other side too - you simply can't have it both ways.

[donkeyhoty]

Communist "persecutions" of religious groups are by no means anywhere close to what you might like to believe johnny.  

At the outset of of the Soviet Regime in Russia there was a large crackdown on churches and religious leaders, but this was not simply because of atheism vs. theism.  The church controlled much of the land in Russia.  Their persecution was an economic decision.  When WWII came around the Soviets co-opted the Orthodox Church in helping spread patriotic fervor.

Religious groups were not the most persecuted in Soviet or other communist regimes.  The overwhelming majority of those purged in Soviet Russia were for political reasons.  

It's quite common for the religious to defend their abhorrent acts by saying, "Look, you guys did it too."  This does nothing to absolve such acts as the Crusades, Inquisition, St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, Witch Trials, or suicide bombings.  If you would like to defend specific instances, such as the Thirty Years' War and why it was not a religiously motivated war, then by all means do so.  To use a feeble-minded generalization that is analogus to saying, "Everyone's doing it, so why can't we?", should be embarassing, not only to you, but to everyone inclined to examine all forms of religious intolerance and persecution.

Also, what the hell is wrong with Dimebag is wormshit?  Calling someone "woman".  Shit, why not just call her broad, or darlin'.

[Tom62]

I don't think that you can compare the communist "persecutions" with the attrocities committed by the Third Reich or religious fruitcakes. Like donkeyhoty already said the church had stolen huge amounts of land and had a huge political and social influence in Russia. The crackdown of the communist party was therefore not against the christians, but against the orthodox church as institute (which was a kind of state inside a state). I've been many times in Poland and Russia during the "cold war" and know many religious people there. None of them had any problems at all to visit their churches during your so called communist "persecutions".

But anyway let's not talk about the past anymore. it is so easy to "blamestorm" and claim that we were better than you or visa-versa. What we must do is to try to stop any current and future attrocities, whether they come from the political right, political left , religion or whatever.

[Johndigger]

There were many crusades, and I would hesitate to tarnish them all with the same brush

This does nothing to absolve such acts as the Crusades,

I love it when Atheists pop this one out.

Do you think that you'd be allowed to be an Atheist if Muslims dominated the entire world?


And that's nearly what it was. Christendom was on its last legs when the Arabs were preparing a beach invasion of Rome, the Pope was evacuated. The only reason the Vatican City wasn't taken over because the head of the Arabian Army died and his conquering dreams with him.




JD

[Whitney]

The problem with religious people doing bad things in the name of their religion is they use this book which is claimed to be at least divinely inspired by god if not his direct word...being able to support bad actions through a religious text and getting others to follow your interpretation places a huge dent in making a case for that text being divinely inspired.  Something divinely inspired wouldn't leave room for gross misinterpretation.

I see no real comparison between Communists doing bad and a people doing bad based off a religious text.  In the case of communists they are doing it for political reasons and no good case for it being related to atheism can be made while we can directly show how religious leaders used the Bible/Koran for basis.

Atheists don't share a common text...so we can't be lumped together.

What do we do with political systems when they can easily be used for harm?  Attempt to throw them out or reform them.  Believers no room for reforming a text that is claimed to be the word of god...doing so would prove that it was just the work of men to begin with.

[SteveS]

Hi guys,

brainshmain:  I agree completely, I find "revisionist history" (in the sense of pretending that things didn't happen for ideological, rather than evidentiary, reasons) to be reprehensible in all it's forms.  The holocaust was horrible for many ethnic and religious groups.  In fact, an old co-worker of mine used to use a little holocaust-inspired story to defend why we should support people's rights to some things that we don't personally agree with.  It's probably something famous, and I'm probably butchering it, but it basically went like:

When they came for the Czechs I did not fight them because I was not Czech.
When they came for the Poles I did not fight them because I was not Polish.
When they came for the Jews I did not fight them because I was not Jewish.
When they came for me, I could not fight them, because there was nobody left to help me fight.

The real evil to me in denying that this happened, is that if we deny it, then what have we learned from it?  Nothing.

Johndigger, I just want to throw out an observation, when you say (in the context of crusades),

Do you think that you'd be allowed to be an Atheist if Muslims dominated the entire world?

I wonder how the Christian crusaders felt about atheists?  If the Christian religion matured to be more tolerant, then why wouldn't the Muslim religion have been able to?  In fact, I have my doubts as to whether I'll be allowed to be an atheist if Pat Robertson's Christians dominate the entire world.  Well, at least not an outspoken one, anyway.  In a world where church is required, I'll go, but a little voice inside my head is going to be whispering "I think this is all bullshit", and I can't really turn it off, can I?

I take your point that the average Muslim, in our current times, seems much more prone to intolerance than the average Christian.  My point is that it wasn't always like this (think about the historical Islamic scholars, for instance).  So I'm not sure it's something inherent to the religion that is causing the intolerance.

Still, I have serious issues with the modern Muslims, and in fact I personally feel that Islamic religious intolerance is one of the current major threats to world peace.  Whether the U.N. has enough guts to say so or not.

[donkeyhoty]

The Battle of Tours was of a vastly greater importance in "saving" christian Europe than your hyperbolic contention of the Muslim incursions into Italy.

I'll just go ahead and assume you meant Papal States and not Vatican, as the Vatican was not created until the 20th Century.  Also, the Pope was never in danger of Muslim conquest.  Only the toe and heel of the boot were captured along with Sicily.  This area was recaptured by the Byzantines and later the Italo-Normans.  The collapse of the Muslim conquest was not due to their leader dying.  It was due to political infighting and military defeats.  

If by some odd chance you are obliquely referring to the Battle of Ostia in 849, well that's more important as a painting than a military victory.  The christians were victorius, but the Pope was never evacuated or in any grave danger.

Do you think that you'd be allowed to be an Atheist if Muslims dominated the entire world?

I love it when christians pop this one out.  

Do you think you'd be allowed to be christian if such was so?  How about if the Mongol Horde had continued its rampage into western europe?  Or, if Constantine hadn't gotten lucky and believed "your" god helped him win victory at the Battle of Milvian Bridge?

Where is your defense of the crusades?  And which would you not paint with the same brush as the others?  The 2nd?  The 4th, where the crusaders decided to sack Constantinople?  

How about the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre?  Those damn Huguenots, how dare they believe in Jesus and god in a different way.

You still haven't explained how Soviets killing Russian Orthodox priests absolves christian violence against other religions, as well as muslim violence against other religions.  As you will recall, I mentioned suicide bombings in my original post.  I don't make exceptions for whatever religion is doing the persecuting, Catholic v. Protestant, Muslim v. Catholic, it's all in the name of religion.

[Johndigger]

Well, I mean, let's whack out the Statistics, then?

All information is taken from  Central Intelligence Agency Website (Which, I'm sure we can agree is quite a reliable source)

Population of Atheists in a predominantly Christian country, say The United States ? 10%

Population of Atheists in another predominantly Christian Country, say The United Kingdom? 7%


What's the population of Atheists in a country say Iran? It doesn't even register on the scale. It's not even listed.


Population of Atheists in Iraq? Doesn't even register again.



Yes, some Christian groups are not particularly tolerant of Atheists, we know this from the discrimination that Atheists have recieved. But the fact of the matter is - your beliefs have been allowed to grow, hampered perhaps, but they've been allowed none the same. And I highly doubt you would get the same freedom in a Muslim country.


JD,
just my 2 cents, of course. But when people make assertions with very little evidence apart from the stuff they've "heard", it does tempt fate.

Edit: In reply to Donkey, never did I absolve Christian violence, in anyway, I just said we need to look at both sides of the story.

In answer to your brush question, look at the first crusade: That took place because Muslims were extensively persecuting Christians. It was wholly a defensive war. Christianity did not strike first.

Tell me, what would you have done if you were being attacked? Sat down and got wiped out?

JD

[donkeyhoty]

great way to skirt the issue, Johnny D.

[Johndigger]

I apologise, what was the question you were asking/statement you were making?

[brainshmain]

I think this thread has gone a little off from my originally intended topic.

I was never implying that certain groups are or aren't discriminated against.  Every denomination has in history been persecuting in one way or another.
What I was trying to say is that injustices only continue if people deny the injustices that have occured in the past, as well as deny that their own denomination has committed attrocities.  That is what a lot of neo-nazis do.  Because many of them are German and feel the need to defend their nationality, they deny that their ancestors have ever done anything wrong, while emphasizing and exhaggerating any discrimination that they have ever experienced.

[McQ]

I apologise, what was the question you were asking/statement you were making?

Read the original post and view the link. That should get you back on track.

[Johndigger]

Noooooo! Derails, FTW.