Theist Commentary: How to tell your family you are an atheist.

[iSok]

Occam's Razor. We can either assume the Qur'an is just a book of stories and what have you, or that everything in it is true and that a omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God that intervenes in human affairs and revealed himself to an Arabic man way back when really does exist, because it's written beautifully and some of its scripture can possibly made to look like vague and simplistic predictions of modern scientific knowledge.

If that's your only proof that the Qur'an is true, then I find it sorely lacking and not compelling at all.

I'm also interested in how you're going to weasel your way out of not being a hypocrite when you accuse us of not being logical or rational when we haven't read your holy book, but you yourself still being logical and rational when you haven't read some of the ones I listed.

This hypocrit will try and explain on monday.

[Stevil]

Well, during the revelation of the Qur'an, Muhammad (pbuh) was never accused of being the author even not by his ennemies.

It seems that there are a lot of similarities between the Qur'an and the Christian Bible. It seems quite obvious that people would have realised that Muhammad wasn't the author although he took some liberties with his rewrite.

The revelation of the Qur'an took 23 years.

These people that tried to copy the style, did they have 23 years to do so?

In those 23 years he went through hell..His wife was killed, people stoned him.
He almost starved to death, for months the only food he had were dates and water.
Four of his sons died. Lets say it wasn't a pleasant time.

Please forgive me if I have been misinformed. My source tells me that Muhammad took his favourite wife Aisha into wedhood when she was 6 years old. She was a virgin at the time and hence the appeal. Where I come from Muhammad would have been labelled by law as a paedophile and would have been given a lengthy prison sentence as well as having to register himself as a sex offender before entering a town and people around him would detest him and hold on tight to their children. With this in mind it seems to me appropriate that he went through some unpleasant times.

But in the Qur'an we don't find his emotions.

I also understand that he got jealous with regards to other men looking at his wives and hence a revelation which was documented into the Qur'an was that his own wifes should be veiled.

There's for example a whole chapter about the mother of Jesus, Mary. Yet, his wife's name is not even revealed. who died because of persecution.
None of his sons or his direct family are noted in the Qur'an.

It is understandable since the Qur'an is about the Christian/Muslim god and is a rewrite of the Christian bible. But as above, he did mention that his wives should be veiled?

We do know how Muhammad (pbuh) spoke, his sayings (The Hadith) are very well documented.
His sayings do not resemble the Qur'an at all. Muhammad (pbuh) thought for example
that every disease can be cured, so the Hadith also include recipes for a lot of potions he thought would work to cure diseases.
In the Qur'an we don't find this.

OK, i know i am getting confussed here. I thought you said that the Qur'an was written by witnesses based on Muhammed's sayings. Please tell me, who was holding the writing device when the Qur'an was written?

Muslims and Non-muslim scholars agree that the Qur'an is by far the most magnificent work of the Arabic language.
The Qur'an has not been preceeded or succeeded by a book of it's kind. This what they agree on.

Let me quote my favourite english translation passage as a fine example
"Your wives are your tillage", "Go in therefore unto your tillage in what manner soever ye will".

It contains certain phrases that no man could have known.
The expansion of the universe for example is a phrase that no man knew back then.

I can give you a lot of more examples.

Here, this is the interesting bit. Please provide more examples.

Monday my first subject is Quanto mechanics, the hardest of my finals.

I predict that you will have a rather interesting discussion with a forum member called TheJackel. In particular your discussion on how God created existence itself will be rather enlightening. But you need to have that discussion with him, not me.

[hackenslash]

The only religious book you ever read is the Bible (did you?). Now you claim that you're an atheist.
Never did you go out and read any other religious book to find out why people are attracted to them, in your eyes it's already 'mumbo jumbo'.

I have considered the impudent accusations of Mr Dawkins with exasperation at his lack of serious scholarship. He has apparently not read the detailed discourses of Count Roderigo of Seville on the exquisite and exotic leathers of the Emperor's boots, nor does he give a moment's consideration to Bellini's masterwork, On the Luminescence of the Emperor's Feathered Hat. We have entire schools dedicated to writing learned treatises on the beauty of the Emperor's raiment, and every major newspaper runs a section dedicated to imperial fashion; Dawkins cavalierly dismisses them all. He even laughs at the highly popular and most persuasive arguments of his fellow countryman, Lord D. T. Mawkscribbler, who famously pointed out that the Emperor would not wear common cotton, nor uncomfortable polyester, but must, I say must, wear undergarments of the finest silk.

    Dawkins arrogantly ignores all these deep philosophical ponderings to crudely accuse the Emperor of nudity.

    Personally, I suspect that perhaps the Emperor might not be fully clothed â€" how else to explain the apparent sloth of the staff at the palace laundry â€" but, well, everyone else does seem to go on about his clothes, and this Dawkins fellow is such a rude upstart who lacks the wit of my elegant circumlocutions, that, while unable to deal with the substance of his accusations, I should at least chide him for his very bad form.

    Until Dawkins has trained in the shops of Paris and Milan, until he has learned to tell the difference between a ruffled flounce and a puffy pantaloon, we should all pretend he has not spoken out against the Emperor's taste. His training in biology may give him the ability to recognize dangling genitalia when he sees it, but it has not taught him the proper appreciation of Imaginary Fabrics.

Isaac Newton, the father of physics was a devoted christian.

He was also an alchemist. This is argumentum ad verecundiam writ large.

He is the One who made mankind,
He is the One who sustains mankind,
He is the One who awaits mankind,

Yet He is denied by the majority of mankind.
He deserves much better from us.

Have you already forgotten about the 'no preaching' rule?

[iSok]

It seems that there are a lot of similarities between the Qur'an and the Christian Bible.
It seems quite obvious that people would have realised that Muhammad wasn't the author although he took some liberties with his rewrite.

I know very little on this subject. Jesus (pbuh) was however sent to restore the old law given to the jews.
The old testament was at that time already corrupt, so he came to restore the old testament.
His sayings were written down after he was gone, I don’t know how many years after.
In short, we believe the that the bible (Old testament + Psalms + the New testament) are altered over time by man.
Some part of it, we still recognize by comparing it with the Qur’an, other parts are changed. The rule is, that if it contradicts the Qur’an, it has been changed.

The Qur’an is not like the bible, it contradicts on a lot of point.
Major point is that we do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) is the son of God.

We regard the Qur’an as the last word from God before the end of times.
Read my respond towards Legendarysandwich (which I hope I am going to post soon)

These people that tried to copy the style, did they have 23 years to do so?

Yes, people even tried centuries after the Prophet passed away. This challenge can also be found in the Qur’an.

(2:23) And if you be in doubt whether the Book We have sent down to Our Servant is from Us or not, then produce, at least, one Surah like this.
 You may call all your associates to assist you and avail yourselves of the help of any one other than Allah. If you are genuine in your doubt, do this.

Please forgive me if I have been misinformed. My source tells me that Muhammad took his favourite wife Aisha into wedhood when she was 6 years old.
She was a virgin at the time and hence the appeal. Where I come from Muhammad would have been labelled by law as a paedophile and would have been given a
 lengthy prison sentence as well as having to register himself as a sex offender before entering a town and people around him would detest him and hold on tight to their children.
With this in mind it seems to me appropriate that he went through some unpleasant times.

No, you are not misinformed. Aisha started living with the Prophet at the age of 9.
There are some reasons for Muhammad (pbuh) marrying Aisha at the age of 9.

The times back then were different. There was no school, no education to pursue. So it was quite normal to get married at a very early age. This was quite a common thing to do.

Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bakr, one of the Prophet’s best friend, the marriage with Aisha would strengthen the bond between the two.

Aisha was known for her intelligence. Half of the Hadith (the sayings of the Prophet) come from her.
Without Aisha half of the Hadith would have been lost, and the right interpretation too.
She knew Muhammad (pbuh) the best. The prophet’s companions would listen to Aisha’s preaches
after Muhammad (pbuh) passed away whenever they didn’t understand something.
After the Prophet died, people would come from every corner of the Arabian Peninsula just to listen to her.

Aisha was set as an example, to show the ignorants  of back then that women also deserve an education and that they can be better than men.
Before he came, women were seen as properties, the Arabs had a lucrative  trade in women. Most of the time female infants after birth were buried alive.
Women were no more than pets you could easily get rid off.

Aisha in her twenties, commanding tribe elders who were well in their sixties. I know that it isn’t such a big deal. But in a society where age and gender means the world, it means a lot.

I posted these Hadith (Sayings of Muhammad (pbuh)) somewhere on the forum.

'The ink of a scholar is more holy than the blood of a martyr'
'To listen to the words of the learned, and to instill into others the lessons of science, is better than religious exercises'
'The acquisition of knowledge is a duty incumbent one every Muslim, male and female'
'He who leaves home in search of knowledge, walks in the path of God'
'Go in quest of knowledge, even unto China'

Aisha is seen as the perfect example that women can be superior in knowledge for muslims who’s cultural (men>women) is affecting this issue.

However, Muhammad (pbuh) had also other wifes.

He married Khadija at the age of 25 when Khadija (a widow) was 40. His marriage lasted 25 years, which ended in Khadija’s death, due to persecution because of the Quraish tribe. Khadija is the women I talked about in my previous post. After her death he was devastated, Muhammad (pbuh) had no more direct family, he grew up as an orphan from the age of four. For three years he didn’t marry any women. After these three years he married several women (also Aisha).
However the women he married were definitely not known for their beauty or youth. All of them were widows. Some of his wives used to beg on the streets.
Others he married for political reasons, to strenghten bonds between allies. I know it does sound strange.
There's a good biography of Muhammad (pbuh) (and affordable) written by Dr. Ling, in case you are interested.
http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Life-Based-Earliest-Sources/dp/1594771537/ref=pd_sim_b_1

But I do agree with you that today this situation should not be tolerated.  

I also understand that he got jealous with regards to other men looking at his wives and hence a revelation which was documented into the Qur'an was that his own wifes should be veiled.

Do you have a source and can you share it with me, and what verse you are talking about?

OK, i know i am getting confussed here. I thought you said that the Qur'an was written by witnesses based on Muhammed's sayings. Please tell me, who was holding the writing device when the Qur'an was written?

The Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) in parts. Whenever he received the part, he would recite it in public. He did not know how to read or write, so the words would be laid on his lips.
By reciting it in public, the people would immediately memorise it (this was a tradition back then).

After the completion, all the parts that he received over the total of 23 years were combined.
And the Qur’an was created. By this time almost everyone in Mecca knew the Qur’an by heart.
When the Qur’an was completed (in written form), not a single Hafiz’ (10.000) (someone who knows the Qur’an by heart, word by word) approval was left out. Everyone agreed unanimously that the Qur’an now in written form was complete and original.

It was compiled by Zaid ibn Thabit (Muhammad’s (pbuh) first scribe) and commissioned by Abu Bakr (The first caliph, one of Muhammad’s (pbuh) best friends and father of Aisha).

Forster Fitzgerald (Britishi orientalist) -
From a literary point of view, the Korân is regarded as a specimen of the purest Arabic, written in half poetry and half prose.
 It has been said that in some cases grammarians have adapted their rules to agree with certain phrases and
expressions used in it, and that, though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none have as yet succeeded.

It will thus be seen, from the above, that a final and complete text of the Korân was prepared within twenty years after the
death (A.D. 632) of Muhammad, and that this has remained the same, without any change or alteration by enthusiasts, translators, or interpolators, up to the present time.
It is to be regretted that the same cannot be said of all the books of the Old and New Testaments.

Let me quote my favourite english translation passage as a fine example
"Your wives are your tillage", "Go in therefore unto your tillage in what manner soever ye will".

This verse just means that intercourse is not just for pleasure, but also for creating offspring.
Parenting is probably the most important aspect for Muslims for their purpose of life.
The purpose of life according to us, is to grow here in morals, to grow in mercy, love, kindness, knowledge etc… Parenting is a very important part, one can grow his soul.
We do not believe in the original sin, which means that we do not believe that every unbeliever on earth will go to hell.


"O You who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at time of marriage) you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honorably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings
through it a great deal of good." (An-Nisa 4:19)

Most people think that forced marriage is common in Islam, the above verse tells us that it’s even forbidden. I don’t agree with you if you suggest that Muslims are barbaric people who surpress their women at all costs. The majority of converts to Islam are women.

Just like this British judge who investigated Islam after she had too many cases about domestic violence within the Muslim community. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnsIeh_s05g
In the end, she also converted to Islam.

Here, this is the interesting bit. Please provide more examples.

After  some googeling..
I suggest you to read Dr. Maurice Bucaille’s book: The holy scriptures examined in the light of modern knowledge. Here’s the link: http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MB_BQS/default.htm

He was a surgeon on embryology who converted after reading verses in the Qur’an on how man is created in the womb. I didn’t read the book myself, so I don’t know whether all aspects are covered and how useful it is.


@Legendarysandwich, I know I promised you that I will respond today, and I will. I have till 00:00

[Whitney]

I read the bible.I didn't read the Book of Mormon. I didn't read Dianetics.
What are you trying to say?

How can you logically deny their validity/divinity if you haven't read them?

iSok...did you ever answer the above???

[iSok]

I read the bible.I didn't read the Book of Mormon. I didn't read Dianetics.
What are you trying to say?

How can you logically deny their validity/divinity if you haven't read them?

iSok...did you ever answer the above???

Last part of my previous post.

@Legendarysandwich, I know I promised you that I will respond today, and I will. I have till 00:00

It'll be a long answer whitney, I'm almost done with my schedule for today.
I promised I'll answer it today.

[iSok]

Well, why do I reject the Book of Mormons and Dianetics without ever have read them?

First of all, I do not possess full knowledge of the scriptures.
I’m always ‘in search of knowledge’, as my name says; ‘isok’.
So please excuse me if I make any mistake.

Let me start with the book of Mormons.

I have read the bible and after reading it I do not agree and I do not believe in the trinity; (God, Son, Holy spirit).
The book of Mormons continues on that path and still believes that Jesus (pbuh) is the Son of God.
That belief is supported by the Bible, therefore the whole foundation of that belief fell away for me.
The Qur’an tells us that Jesus (pbuh) was a messenger and not the son of God.

We believe, like I said before that the Bible (Old Testament, Psalms and the New Testament) have been altered and changed by men during the years.
 Not every passage has been changed, if a verse contradicts the Qur’an or seems strange, it has probably been altered.
A strange verse is for example this one.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Timothy 3:16

This means, that we can alter the word of God. By doing this, the message will get corrupt over time and sometimes will be used for wordly gains. So this is most likely added by men over time.


However there are still verses that might have some of it’s original meaning. Let me list a few that could have some meaning left, since they do not contradict the Qur’an.

Deuteronomy:
18:15  The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
18:16  According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again
the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
18:17  And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18:18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


If this has not been altered, that means that in the time of Moses, God said that He would let rise another prophet.
We as muslims suggest that this was Muhammad.
The last part is important ‘put my words in his mouth’, Muhammad  recited the revelations in public (see my previous post)
since he was illiterate, he literally recited the Word of God.

Christians claim that it was Jesus who is discussed in this verse. However this would mean that Jesus is a prophet and not Son of God.
Moses  and Muhammad  also share more similarities, ‘raise them up a Prophet like unto thee’ to Moses.

The Jews however are still waiting for the prophet mentioned in this verse.

In the New Testament, there are also verses which indicate that the full ‘truth’ has not been passed upon mankind (John 16:12-14).

John 14:16
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."
John 15:26
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."
John: 16:12-14
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you
 unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he     speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me."


Muhammad (pbuh) actually showed us everything, almost every answer to every question. The purpose of life for example.
If there is one man that can be called the most truthful in the most backward civilization, it was Muhammad (pbuh). If you read history
you’ll see that Pre-Islamic Arabs were  not really friendly….at the least. In the verse above, Jesus (pbuh) mentions ‘the spirit of truth’.
 Muhammad’s (pbuh) nickname from a very young age was; ‘The most truthful’, given by his tribe, people respected him from a very early age for his sincerity, his pure heart and his truthfulness. I do know that it’s hard to believe for you Ls, because of the image Muhammad (pbuh) is given by the media. I’ll quote a few non-muslim scholars.

-Thomas Carlyle
"The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning
zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are
disgraceful to ourselves only."
"A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but
be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the
world’s Maker had ordered so."

- W. Montogomery Watt
His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs,
the high moral character of the men
who believed in him and looked up to him as
leader, and the greatness of his ultimate
achievement - all argue his fundamental
integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor
raises more problems than it solves. Moreover,
none of the great figures of history is so poorly
appreciated in the West as Muhammad."

- Annie Besant
But do you mean to tell me that the man who
in the full flush of youthful vigor, a young man
of four and twenty (24), married a woman much
his senior, and remained faithful to her for six
and twenty years (26), at fifty years of age
when the passions are dying married for lust
and sexual passion? Not thus are men's lives to
be judged. And you look at the women whom he
married, you will find that by every one of
them an alliance was made for his people, or
something was gained for his followers, or the
woman was in sore need of protection.

A verse from the Qur'an (there are more about this subject)
(Qur'an 16:36) We raised a Messenger in every community (to tell them): "Serve Allah and shun the Evil One. Thereafter Allah guided some of them while others were overtaken by error.
 Go about the earth, then, and observe what was the end of those who rejected the Messengers,calling them liars.

So we believe that every community on earth was sent a messenger to tell them what is right and what is wrong (we human beings cannot differentiate between good and evil).
The society you live in today, is based on Christian values, we can't deny that.

So we as muslims believe that a lot of religions we see in this world could have come from God, but were altered by mankind.
For example Hinduism (they worship a lot of gods), they also believe in ONE Supreme God.
In many scriptures of other religions, another 'enlightened one' is announced.

I'll quote a part from the Gospel of Bhudda. (Blessed One = Bhudda)

"Ananda said to the Blessed One, ‘Who shall teach us when thou art gone?'

And the Blessed one replied, 'I am not the first Buddha who came upon the earth nor shall I be the last. In due time another Buddha will arise in the world, a holy one, a supremely enlightened one, endowed with wisdom in conduct, auspicious, knowing the universe, an incomparable leader of men, a master of angels and mortals. He will reveal to you the same eternal truths, which I have taught you. He will preach his religion, glorious in its origin, glorious at the climax and glorious at the goal. He will proclaim a religious life, wholly perfect and pure such as I now proclaim. His disciples will number many thousands while mine number many hundreds.'


God gave each community a certain law, which was only meant for that community.

Islam, is the final revelation, this time it's an universal message, law. Connecting all the dots.
It basically is a guideline for life, not only meant for Arabs, but for each and every community.
Today it's the fastest growing religion.
It tells us how to deal with every aspect of life: random issues..

- Human Law
- Environmental issues (pollution)
- Animal rights
- Behaviour
- Hygiene
etc..



God in the Qur’an says that, the Qur’an will be the last revelation to mankind, the final message.
And that He will make sure it does not get altered, after 1400 years it did stay original, today over 30 million people know it by heart.
God also says in the Qur'an, that Muhammad is the final seal of every prophet he sent, (in total there were 124000 prophets sent to mankind).
Muhammad (pbuh) will be the final seal of all the prophets, no other will come after him.

Too make a long answer short Legendarysandwich, the book of Mormons continues on the fact that Jesus (pbuh) was the son of God.
The foundation of that believe can be found in the Bible, which I read and I did not accept.


The other book you mentioned, Dianetics by Ron Hubbard. I’ll give a short answer.

Well the book itself was never intented by the writer to be a book of religion at all. It was a self-help philosophy. Over the years people started to admire it, and Ron Hubbard changed it into a religion.
That is one major point…

The other thing, is that they want to abolish the field of pscychiatry.
There are several more reasons.
To me it seems that some people make profit of it, by developing certain marketing methods. We’ve seen that companies like Amway or Herbal Life use this strategy
too (the pyramid system, people at top make most profit).

-Get members and ‘rise’ in the ‘foodchain’ (Scientology calls this enlightenment).
As long as you get members you’ll rise, no matter how you did it what your intentions were.

[LegendarySandwich]

Too make a long answer short Legendarysandwich, the book of Mormons continues on the fact that Jesus (pbuh) was the son of God.
The foundation of that believe can be found in the Bible, which I read and I did not accept.

And the Qur'an lies on the same Abrahamic foundation that there exists a god who is omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent, which I do not accept.

The other book you mentioned, Dianetics by Ron Hubbard. I’ll give a short answer.

Well the book itself was never intented by the writer to be a book of religion at all. It was a self-help philosophy. Over the years people started to admire it, and Ron Hubbard changed it into a religion.
That is one major point…

The other thing, is that they want to abolish the field of pscychiatry.
There are several more reasons.
To me it seems that some people make profit of it, by developing certain marketing methods. We’ve seen that companies like Amway or Herbal Life use this strategy
too (the pyramid system, people at top make most profit).

-Get members and ‘rise’ in the ‘foodchain’ (Scientology calls this enlightenment).
As long as you get members you’ll rise, no matter how you did it what your intentions were.

And Islam seems like a primitive, archaic religion to me that isn't worth my time.

[iSok]

And the Qur'an lies on the same Abrahamic foundation that there exists a god who is omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent, which I do not accept.

And Islam seems like a primitive, archaic religion to me that isn't worth my time.

I'll quote Annie Besant (A women's right activist, from Great-Brittain in the early 20th century).

-Annie Besant

You can find others stating that the religion (Islam) is evil, because it sanctions a limited polygamy. But you do not hear as a rule the criticism which I spoke out one day in a London hall where I knew that the audience was entirely uninstructed. I pointed out to them that monogamy with a blended mass of prostitution was a hypocrisy and more degrading than a limited polygamy.

Naturally a statement like that gives offence, but it has to be made, because it must be remembered that the law of Islam in relation to women was until lately, when parts of it have been imitated in England, the most just law, as far as women are concerned, to be found in the world. Dealing with property, dealing with rights of succession and so on, dealing with cases of divorce, it was far beyond the law of the West, in the respect that was paid to the rights of women. Those things are forgotten while people are hypnotized by the words monogamy and polygamy and do not look at what lies behind it in the West-the frightful degradation of women who are thrown into the streets when their first protectors, weary of them, no longer give them any assistance…

"I often think that woman is more free in Islam than in Christianity. Woman is more protected by Islam than by the faith which preaches Monogamy. In Al-Quran the law about woman is more just and liberal. It is only in the last twenty years that Christian England, has recognized the right of woman to property, while Islam has allowed this right from all times… It is a slander to say that Islam preaches that women have no souls.

Islam gave rights to women as never before. The Arabs back then did not see much difference between a dog and a women, a women was able to follow more commands.
That was it, as far as they were concerned. As I said before that female infants usually were burried alive, right after they were born.
So I hope you see what a major development that was..something that's almost unbelievable.

[Tank]

Women's rights in Saudi Arabia

[iSok]

Women's rights in Saudi Arabia

Within Islam, there are basically three branches, Sunni, Shai and Sufi.
90% of the Muslims are sunni.

Wahhabism is a branch of the sunni, which is the state religion of Saudi Arabia.
Wahhabism was founded in 1800 I think, nowadays it's called 'Salafi'.

Take a look at the first line of the wikipedia article.

Gender roles in Saudi society come from Sharia (Islamic law) and tribal culture.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi
In Iran for example, women are allowed to drive, in Pakistan women are allowed to be elected.
Not to forget, that the majority of converts to Islam, are women.

Can you be more specific?

[LegendarySandwich]

And the Qur'an lies on the same Abrahamic foundation that there exists a god who is omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent, which I do not accept.

And Islam seems like a primitive, archaic religion to me that isn't worth my time.

I'll quote Annie Besant (A women's right activist, from Great-Brittain in the early 20th century).

-Annie Besant

You can find others stating that the religion (Islam) is evil, because it sanctions a limited polygamy. But you do not hear as a rule the criticism which I spoke out one day in a London hall where I knew that the audience was entirely uninstructed. I pointed out to them that monogamy with a blended mass of prostitution was a hypocrisy and more degrading than a limited polygamy.

Naturally a statement like that gives offence, but it has to be made, because it must be remembered that the law of Islam in relation to women was until lately, when parts of it have been imitated in England, the most just law, as far as women are concerned, to be found in the world. Dealing with property, dealing with rights of succession and so on, dealing with cases of divorce, it was far beyond the law of the West, in the respect that was paid to the rights of women. Those things are forgotten while people are hypnotized by the words monogamy and polygamy and do not look at what lies behind it in the West-the frightful degradation of women who are thrown into the streets when their first protectors, weary of them, no longer give them any assistance…

"I often think that woman is more free in Islam than in Christianity. Woman is more protected by Islam than by the faith which preaches Monogamy. In Al-Quran the law about woman is more just and liberal. It is only in the last twenty years that Christian England, has recognized the right of woman to property, while Islam has allowed this right from all times… It is a slander to say that Islam preaches that women have no souls.

Islam gave rights to women as never before. The Arabs back then did not see much difference between a dog and a women, a women was able to follow more commands.
That was it, as far as they were concerned. As I said before that female infants usually were burried alive, right after they were born.
So I hope you see what a major development that was..something that's almost unbelievable.

And Dianetics is at least a psuedoscience.

I said that Islam is archaic. I don't doubt that it probably was a good thing in the past, but the civilized world has no use for it now.

[iSok]

I said that Islam is archaic. I don't doubt that it probably was a good thing in the past, but the civilized world has no use for it now.

You said it's primitive and archaic

Let me adress a recent event. The global economy crisis would not have happened if some parts of the Islamic Law about economy
were injected in this system. The system we use now, would be far more reliable and stable.
Some 'economists' (forgive me for my cave English) are researching this now.

We humans cannot differentiate between 'good' and 'evil', it's impossible for us without someone telling us.

Why do you think that for example raping a women is bad, or murdering is bad?
In some parts of the world, murdering someone is heroic.
In parts of Indonesia, people eat their dead relatives.
Why do we consider that as strange?

It's because of the society we grew up in, the influence we went through. You were raised
according to Christian values, and today you think that way too.

I have nothing against atheists, in the end we are all brothers in humanity.
What I want to say, is that man is weak and can easily be brainwashed. Just look at
Nazi-Germany in the second world war, how easy Goebbel brainwashed the majort part of Germany.

There was an experiment done at Stanford University in 1971, where they did an experiment with students from universities.
Students were divided into two groups, guard and prisoners, they had to follow certain rules.

But just after a few days, the guard 'group' started to violate the rules, after just 8 days I think they had to stop the experiment, since
the 'prisoners' group life was threatened, because the 'guard' group went out of control.

We DO need religion, every religion in this world has certain values, what we can learn from.
'Do not kill, Do not lie, Do not rape, Do not steal..etc', even if you do consider that as 'brainwashing', I am happy that we were 'brainwashed' in this way.

For example, without religion; If we just go by reason, logic and the benefit of mankind

why can't we kill people with disabilities?
They don't contribute anything to sciety and they do only cost us money.
If we kill them, their DNA will end, which will benefit us. So why not kill them? They will just end to exist.
And why is it bad to do that?


A society without religion, would be really cold, it would not be a happy place to live in.
Society changes fast so do it's rules, but religious values stay.

[LegendarySandwich]

I said that Islam is archaic. I don't doubt that it probably was a good thing in the past, but the civilized world has no use for it now.

You said it's primitive and archaic

Let me adress a recent event. The global economy crisis would not have happened if some parts of the Islamic Law about economy
were injected in this system. The system we use now, would be far more reliable and stable.
Some 'economists' (forgive me for my cave English) are researching this now.

Evidence?

We humans cannot differentiate between 'good' and 'evil', it's impossible for us without someone telling us.

That is false. Evolution has gave us a conscious we are born with.

Why do you think that for example raping a women is bad, or murdering is bad?

Because it produces pain and suffering, and stifles joy and happiness.

In some parts of the world, murdering someone is heroic.

I would say it depends on who it is.

In parts of Indonesia, people eat their dead relatives.

Nothing wrong with that.

Why do we consider that as strange?

Because of our culture. Evolution gives us some of our morality; culture and society gives us the rest (and sometimes, logic and rational thinking does as well).

It's because of the society we grew up in, the influence we went through. You were raised
according to Christian values, and today you think that way too.

That is true; I was, and I still am, actually. However, I wouldn't say I align with Christian values.

I have nothing against atheists, in the end we are all brothers in humanity.
What I want to say, is that man is weak and can easily be brainwashed. Just look at
Nazi-Germany in the second world war, how easy Goebbel brainwashed the majort part of Germany.

I agree, although I wouldn't use the word "brainwash", as it's more natural than that.

We DO need religion, every religion in this world has certain values, what we can learn from.
'Do not kill, Do not lie, Do not rape, Do not steal..etc', even if you do consider that as 'brainwashing', I am happy that we were 'brainwashed' in this way.

Ah, the "we need certain ideologies because of the good they produce" argument.

I don't disagree that ideologies I would regard as "bad", such as religion, actually have good values and morals. But they also have bad values and morals. It's like getting a box of chocolates -- some of the chocolates are good, some of the chocolates are bad. We as humans are built to either wholly accept an ideology, or reject all of it -- a lot of the time, we aren't raised to pick and choose.

That's something we need to change. We as humans can built better "ideologies", ones we make ourselves and contain only good values and morals. We need religion as much as we need superstition.

For example, without religion;

why can't we kill people with disabilities?

Because they're still human?

They don't contribute anything to sciety, so why not kill them?

Atheism does not equal social Darwinism.

And why is it bad to do that?

Because it's killing a person for no good reason.

Society changes fast so do it's rules, but religious values stay.

And that's bad. We need to let go of religion and a lot of its primitive and archaic values.

[hackenslash]

why can't we kill people with disabilities?
They don't contribute anything to sciety and they do only cost us money.