Why are we here? - Islam

[hackenslash]

No matter how unaltered your book might be, it's still the same fiction as the other books.

Whitney, I'd appreciate it if you would take care of posts like these. Really, I can't find anything of discussion value in this posting. If you're already convinced it's fiction anyway, what are you doing in this thread...?

That post takes care of itself, by virtue of being a statement of fact. If you don't find value in it, don't bother with. I find such posts extremely valuable, as they are direct and to the point.

The Qu'ran is fiction.

[hackenslash]

there are no internal contradictions in it

He is wrong. Here's a short list of contradictions.

[Simonsimon]

No matter how unaltered your book might be, it's still the same fiction as the other books.

Whitney, I'd appreciate it if you would take care of posts like these. Really, I can't find anything of discussion value in this posting. If you're already convinced it's fiction anyway, what are you doing in this thread...?

That post takes care of itself, by virtue of being a statement of fact. If you don't find value in it, don't bother with. I find such posts extremely valuable, as they are direct and to the point.

The Qu'ran is fiction.

How can you possibly know for sure that the Qu'ran is fiction? You have proof that God doesn't exist then? I think it's more like you believe in it being fiction.

there are no internal contradictions in it

He is wrong. Here's a short list of contradictions.

Well, this would be pretty hard to debunk without having read the qu'ran itself. These seem to contradict eachother superficially, yes. They'll make a lot more sense in context I'm sure, alas...I have not read the qu'ran yet. Perhaps iSok can go through a couple of these and debunk them? I'm rather convinced it should be possible, actually. Without having read the qu'ran (yeah, I'll try not to use the Dutch spelling of the book from now on):

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/q ... ation.html

This abrogation seems to be about the earlier scriptures, not abrogations in the qu'ran itself, if I'm to believe the commentary here:

http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=2&verse=104&to=112

This is in response to a doubt which the Jews tried to implant in the minds of the Muslims. If both the earlier Scriptures and the Qur'an were revelations from God, why was it - they asked - that the injunctions found in the earlier Scriptures had been replaced by new ones in the Qur'an? How could the same God issue divergent injunctions? Furthermore, they expressed their amazement at the Qur'anic indictment of the Jews and Christians for having allowed part of the revelation to be forgotten and lost, pointing out that it was impossible that Divine revelation should be erased from human memory. In all this, their motive was not to know the truth but to cast doubt on the Divine origin of the Qur'an. In refutation God states that He being the Absolute Sovereign has unlimited authority both to abrogate previous injunctions and to cause people to forget the injunctions He wants them to forget. However, God ensures that whatever He abrogates or causes to be erased from people's memories is replaced by something equally or even more beneficial.

[Asmodean]

Simply being unaltered wouldn't mean anything, I agree. I think iSok's point with that was that since the Koran (according to him) is perfect, there are no internal contradictions in it thus it has not needed to be adjusted. Which in turn means that it was written by God, not by man because man would make errors (which man has with the bible).

That point is flawed on several levels though.

Let's take a look at a "for instance":

We know humans exist. We know humans write books. We do not know if gods exist or if they do, if they write books. Safest assumption based on the standing facts (Given choices: God-written or human-written): every book on Earth was at one point or another written by humans.

Another thing is, of course, being that a good enough story, from the perspective of the reader, does not need to be adjusted. It does not speak directly or indirectly to the book's alleged divine origins.

[iSok]

there are no internal contradictions in it

He is wrong. Here's a short list of contradictions.

He was drowned.    

17:102-3
    I deem thee lost, O Pharaoh. And he wished to scare them from the land, but We drowned him and those with him, all together.
28:40
    We seized him [Pharaoh] and his hosts, and abandoned them unto the sea.

43:55
    So, when they angered Us, We punished them and drowned them every one.

He was saved

10:90-92
    Pharaoh ... when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no God save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe ... But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee.

Wrong, his body was preserved for future generations as a sign. So he was drowned.
It was this guy http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/28/2805/D2COD00Z/posters/garrett-kenneth-mummy-of-merenptah-in-the-cairo-museum.jpg


Ibliss was an Angel

2:34
    And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.

7:11
    And We created you then fashioned you, then told the angels: Fall ye prostrate before Adam! And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who make prostration.

Ibliss was an Djinn

7:12
    He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee ? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud.
    [Jinn were created from fire. (15:27)]

18:50
    And (remember) when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He was of the jinn, so he rebelled against his Lord's command.

38:76
    Thou createdst me of fire.

Ibliss is a djinn. Let me explain this.
If there's is one man and his name is Tom for example in a room full of women.
In Arabic you can say 'In the room all of the women were eating, except Tom'. This does not mean that Tom is a woman.
It's that there are no exceptions made for Tom in the Arabic language. If you are not convinced, I'll go in detail.

Slavery is Ok

2:178
    O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female.

Slavery is Not ok

2:177
    Set slaves free

Slavery is forbidden in Islam. Before Islam, women were regarded as a properties, had no right.
Slavery was a normal phenomenon. So from time to time, slavery was forbidden.
In the beginning kindness was preached towards slaves, after a while slavery was forbidden.



Heaven was first

79:27-30
    Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. And after that He spread the
earth....


Earth was first    

2:29
    He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens.

41:9-12
    Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days ... Then turned He to the heaven ... Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days ....



I think you brought some the Qur'an verses too early. One aspect of the Qur'an are it's signs. I will explain this later in more detail.
Heaven that was made first (is the universe)
The heaven that was made AFTER the creation of earth (Is our atmosphere).

(41:12) Then He made them seven heavens in two days and revealed to each heaven its law. And We adorned the lower heaven with lamps, and firmly secured it. All this is the firm plan of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

The full verse isn't even quoted.
But the Qur'an goes further and mentions that the atmosphere is for our protection.

(21:32) and We made the sky a secure canopy; and yet they turn away from these Signs.





One angel visited Mary
19: 16-19
    And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God- fearing. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

   
More than one angel visited Mary
3: 42
    And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women of creation.
3: 45
    (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

'Our Spirit'  is the Angel Gabriel, probably the most important.
Multiple times he's adressed as the 'Holy Spirit' in the Qur'an.

Mary was visited more than once, and one of those times was by Gabriel.


Yes everyone is lead astray by Ibliss.

7 :16 He [Iblis] said: Now, because Thou hast sent me astray, verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path.

   
Only non-muslims.

15:39-40
    I [Iblis] verily shall adorn the path of error for them in the earth, and shall mislead them every one, Save such of them as are Thy perfectly devoted slaves.

38:82-83
    Then, by Thy might, I [Iblis] surely will beguile them every one, Save Thy single-minded slaves among them.

And this one isn't even an contradiction....



Do I need to continue?

[hackenslash]

How can you possibly know for sure that the Qu'ran is fiction? You have proof that God doesn't exist then?

I have a clear reason for understanding that this particular celestial peeping-tom doesn't exist, namely a logically self-defeating attribute, in the form of omnipotence. He's also supposed to be omniscient which, when coupled with the already impossible omnipotence, is also rendered logically absurd. So yes, I can state with supreme confidence that the fuckwit described in the Qu'ran does not exist, and that the book itself is, therefore, fiction.

I think it's more like you believe in it being fiction.

Belief is entirely without utility. I leave that for the credulous.

[Simonsimon]

How can you possibly know for sure that the Qu'ran is fiction? You have proof that God doesn't exist then?

I have a clear reason for understanding that this particular celestial peeping-tom doesn't exist, namely a logically self-defeating attribute, in the form of omnipotence. He's also supposed to be omniscient which, when coupled with the already impossible omnipotence, is also rendered logically absurd. So yes, I can state with supreme confidence that the fuckwit described in the Qu'ran does not exist, and that the book itself is, therefore, fiction.

I think it's more like you believe in it being fiction.

Belief is entirely without utility. I leave that for the credulous.

Why would a omnipotent and omniescient God be impossible? I'm not entirely sure I understand your reasons.

[Gawen]

Oh please...

Case in point: If I hadn't known that the Koran says it's the final revelation, I wouldn't be able to debunk Gawen's argument. Now I may just be able to: Whatever the Hebrew Bible says about this is irrelevant, because the Koran has stated it's the final revelation, in other words, the Hebrew Bible is outdated, an old, 'corrupt' version as long as the Koran is concerned. But I'll let iSok go into that. Point is, I wouldn't have known this if I hadn't read about the Koran.

You have debunked nothing. All you have done is make an assertion that the Quran is "the final revelation". What you need to show us is why the Hebrew Bible is outdated, old and corrupt and why the Quran is right. Simply making a statement that the Quran is right is no proof whatsoever.

Whatever the Hebrew Bible says about this is irrelevant, because the Koran has stated it's the final revelation, in other words, the Hebrew Bible is outdated, an old, 'corrupt'...

No matter how unaltered your book might be, it's still the same fiction as the other books.

Whitney, I'd appreciate it if you would take care of posts like these. Really, I can't find anything of discussion value in this posting. If you're already convinced it's fiction anyway, what are you doing in this thread...?

Sauce for the goose. As it happens, I am of the same mind as Asmodean. The Quran is fiction like any other religious book.

While I'm at it, do you go to the toilet like it says here, in the Islam Modern Religion website?
http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/ ... quette.htm

[Gawen]

alas...I have not read the qu'ran yet. Perhaps iSok can go through a couple of these and debunk them? I'm rather convinced it should be possible, actually. Without having read the qu'ran

You defend a religion without having read the handbook???

[iSok]

alas...I have not read the qu'ran yet. Perhaps iSok can go through a couple of these and debunk them? I'm rather convinced it should be possible, actually. Without having read the qu'ran

You defend a religion without having read the handbook???

Why did you already deny the existence of a God without ever have read a religious book, except the Bible?

[Gawen]

I have attempted to read the Quran, as I said in a post on page 3 of this thread, near the bottom of the page. Perhaps you missed it.

[Velma]

alas...I have not read the qu'ran yet. Perhaps iSok can go through a couple of these and debunk them? I'm rather convinced it should be possible, actually. Without having read the qu'ran

You defend a religion without having read the handbook???

Why did you already deny the existence of a God without ever have read a religious book, except the Bible?

You are still going about this the wrong way.  You keep arguing that your holy book is a better and truer revelation from your deity without ever showing that your deity exists.

[iSok]

Oh please...

Case in point: If I hadn't known that the Koran says it's the final revelation, I wouldn't be able to debunk Gawen's argument. Now I may just be able to: Whatever the Hebrew Bible says about this is irrelevant, because the Koran has stated it's the final revelation, in other words, the Hebrew Bible is outdated, an old, 'corrupt' version as long as the Koran is concerned. But I'll let iSok go into that. Point is, I wouldn't have known this if I hadn't read about the Koran.

You have debunked nothing. All you have done is make an assertion that the Quran is "the final revelation". What you need to show us is why the Hebrew Bible is outdated, old and corrupt and why the Quran is right. Simply making a statement that the Quran is right is no proof whatsoever.

Whatever the Hebrew Bible says about this is irrelevant, because the Koran has stated it's the final revelation, in other words, the Hebrew Bible is outdated, an old, 'corrupt'...

No matter how unaltered your book might be, it's still the same fiction as the other books.

Whitney, I'd appreciate it if you would take care of posts like these. Really, I can't find anything of discussion value in this posting. If you're already convinced it's fiction anyway, what are you doing in this thread...?

Sauce for the goose. As it happens, I am of the same mind as Asmodean. The Quran is fiction like any other religious book.

While I'm at it, do you go to the toilet like it says here, in the Islam Modern Religion website?
http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/ ... quette.htm

I'm really dissapointed, I thought this was a forum where we could debate in reason.

Maybe I made some mistakes too during this debate.
But I'm only one, and sometimes I maybe answered in a wrong way.

Gawen, you claim that the Qur'an is a fictional book without ever have read it.
No matter what logic you use, no matter what your view of life is, claiming the above is just pure ignorance.

You link all sort of vague websites, who claim that the Qur'an has contradictions. I posted arguments against it. Which are proven wrong.
Yet you do not reply and just move on to the next subject.

Whenever I ask you something, you just ignore the question and start quoting things which have no relevance.
I said before that we as Muslims view the bible corrupt. And yet what do you do?
Coming with a post full of lovely quotes about the Bible. What does that say about you?

I thought atheists were people of intellect and would have profound questions.
But the only thing I see Gawen, is just lack of knowledge and ignorance.

While we are at it..
You post bathroom etiquettes about Islamic principles?

What does that have to do with this debate of proving God?
You know Nothing, and yet you have already concluded Everything.

I'm sorry, but I had to say this.

[iSok]

You are still going about this the wrong way.  You keep arguing that your holy book is a better and truer revelation from your deity without ever showing that your deity exists.

I explained this before.
By proving that the Qur'an is divine, that means that the author is divine too.
There are ways with reason, but reasons are always debatable.
I came here to show you 100% proof.
You've been searching for YEARS (what you said earlier), and not ever have you read the Qur'an.
And you are a profound atheist?


Give me your adress, I'll call Him.
So we can make an appointment, just for you, He will teleport in front of your house.
So that then you may believe.

[Simonsimon]

Oh please...

Case in point: If I hadn't known that the Koran says it's the final revelation, I wouldn't be able to debunk Gawen's argument. Now I may just be able to: Whatever the Hebrew Bible says about this is irrelevant, because the Koran has stated it's the final revelation, in other words, the Hebrew Bible is outdated, an old, 'corrupt' version as long as the Koran is concerned. But I'll let iSok go into that. Point is, I wouldn't have known this if I hadn't read about the Koran.

You have debunked nothing. All you have done is make an assertion that the Quran is "the final revelation". What you need to show us is why the Hebrew Bible is outdated, old and corrupt and why the Quran is right. Simply making a statement that the Quran is right is no proof whatsoever.

Whatever the Hebrew Bible says about this is irrelevant, because the Koran has stated it's the final revelation, in other words, the Hebrew Bible is outdated, an old, 'corrupt'...

No matter how unaltered your book might be, it's still the same fiction as the other books.

Whitney, I'd appreciate it if you would take care of posts like these. Really, I can't find anything of discussion value in this posting. If you're already convinced it's fiction anyway, what are you doing in this thread...?

Sauce for the goose. As it happens, I am of the same mind as Asmodean. The Quran is fiction like any other religious book.

While I'm at it, do you go to the toilet like it says here, in the Islam Modern Religion website?
http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/ ... quette.htm

I'm not a muslim nor am I really trying to defend the Islam. Only trying to learn both muslim and non-muslim viewpoints here which is why I sometimes attempt to defend islamic viewpoints or question your views. No need to get dismissive or offensive.