Why are we here? - Islam

[Velma]

You are still going about this the wrong way.  You keep arguing that your holy book is a better and truer revelation from your deity without ever showing that your deity exists.

I explained this before.
By proving that the Qur'an is divine, that means that the author is divine too.
There are ways with reason, but reasons are always debatable.
I came here to show you 100% proof.
You've been searching for YEARS (what you said earlier), and not ever have you read the Qur'an.
And you are a profound atheist?


Give me your adress, I'll call Him.
So we can make an appointment, just for you, He will teleport in front of your house.
So that then you may believe.

From what I've seen and heard from other muslims on other forums, islam's arguments for the existence of god and the divinity of their holy book have no more evidence than any other religion's arguments and in many cases are the same.  Unless you have more than quotes from the quran or blocks of text from muslim theology, I don't see the reason to give up more years of my life researching claims already shown to be without evidence.

[Gawen]

Gawen, you claim that the Qur'an is a fictional book without ever have read it.
No matter what logic you use, no matter what your view of life is, claiming the above is just pure ignorance.


But the only thing I see Gawen, is just lack of knowledge and ignorance.

While we are at it..
You post bathroom etiquettes about Islamic principles?

What does that have to do with this debate of proving God?
You know Nothing, and yet you have already concluded Everything.

I'm sorry, but I had to say this.

You simply cannot see the irony in all this, can you?
Would you be perhaps Sunni? Take, for several examples from Sahih al-Bukhari, a compilation of Muhammad sayings:

Satan lives in your nose: Volume 4 Number 516
Adam was 90 feet tall and spoke Arabic: Volume 4 Number 543
Evil eyes are a fact: Volume 7 Number 636
Love Muhammad more than anyone else: Volume 1 Number 14
More women in Hell than men: Volume 1 Number 28
Solar eclipses are signs from God to scare believers: Volume 2 Number 167
Camels and wolves speak: Volume 3 Number 517

I have many more.

Now, I do not need to read the Quran in whole when I can google as much of it as I wish to read. And when I read crap like the above, I can only conclude that Muhammad was an ignorant by today's standards. He is steeped in superstition. He utters assertions and doesn't prove them. I also conclude that Islam is stuck in the 600's and showing no inclination of coming into the 21'st Century. And many Muslims would claim that Islam is a MODERN religion? This is enlightenment? From a guy who is said to have uttered the above?

So please excuse me as I need to use the toilet. Was that right foot first? Or left? WWMD?

You have shown an inability to debate with reason, a lack of critical thinking. I'm done here.

[iSok]

First of all, what you summed is not from the Qur'an.

Satan lives in your nose: Volume 4 Number 516

The prophet was known for blowing his nose in the morning.
To avoid infectional disease, he told his companions to do the same.
Satan is not always a person, but it also symbolizes for example diseases.

Adam was 90 feet tall and spoke Arabic: Volume 4 Number 543

Fair enough

Evil eyes are a fact: Volume 7 Number 636

Some hadith's are sahih, some are not. but you probably do not know?

Love Muhammad more than anyone else: Volume 1 Number 14

See above.

More women in Hell than men: Volume 1 Number 28

There are also more women in Paradise than men.

Solar eclipses are signs from God to scare believers: Volume 2 Number 167

Fair enough

Camels and wolves speak: Volume 3 Number 517

Fair enough
Once again, is this from a Sahih hadith or not?

Now, I do not need to read the Quran in whole when I can google as much of it as I wish to read.

I love it when you just said that, so you are ignorant and you do use google as your prime resource for knowledge?

And when I read crap like the above, I can only conclude that Muhammad was an ignorant by today's standards.
He is steeped in superstition. He utters assertions and doesn't prove them.

I'm glad you said that he's not a perfect human being. We're one step closer to proofing the divine origin of the Qur'an.
He was indeed superstitious, he also thought that he could heal every disease.
The hadith's are his sayings, they are full of potions to diseases, yet the Qur'an isn't.



Muhammad (pbuh) was probably the best of mankind that have ever been here and ever will be.
I can assure you, that no person like him will walk on the surface of this planet again.

I shall quote some non-muslim scholars that have studied him

"From the very beginning that he was unique in his person and behaviors. His whole nation testified to his truthfulness and sincerity of purpose. They called him 'Al-Sadiq' - The Truthful and 'Al-Ameen' - the Trustworthy. In all his multifarious dealings with all sorts of people he was gentle, and kind, straightforward, and upright. He had sweetness and charm of his own in his talk and department, he never indulged in any kind of indecency. He stood aloof from the feuds and wrangling of his people. On the other hand, he shared the weal and woes of everyone, and was always ready to give a helping hand to the needy and the downtrodden, the helpless and the indigent. Widows and orphans, slaves and wayfarers. In such a topsy-turvy world he towered above all. He was a beacon of light in the vast ocean of darkness spreading all around.
All authorities agree in ascribing to the youth of Mahomet a modesty of department and purity of manners rare among the people of Mecca."
- SIR WILLIAM MUIR

"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means and astounding results
are the criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad?
The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes.
This man Muhammad moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men.
On the basis of a Book, every letter of which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blended together peoples of every tongue and of every race..
Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Warrior, Conqueror of ideas, Restorer of rational beliefs, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammed. AS REGARDS ALL STANDARDS BY WHICH HUMAN GREATNESS MAY BE MEASURED, WE MAY WELL ASK, IS THERE ANY MAN GREATER THAN HE?
- LAMARTINE

"By the force of his extraordinary personality, Muhammed revolutionized life in Arabia and throughout the east. With his own hands he smashed ancient idols and established a religion dedicated to one God. He lifted women from the bondage in which desert customs held them and preached general social justice".
-James A. Michener

"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation
because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which
appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the
changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to
every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my
opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the
Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to
assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed
in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much
needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith
of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of
tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of
today."
- George Bernard Shaw

"I wanted to know the best of one who holds
today's undisputed sway over the hearts of
millions of mankind....I became more than
convinced that it was not the sword that won a
place for Islam in those days in the scheme of
life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-
effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous
regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to
this friends and followers, his intrepidity, his
fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in
his own mission. These and not the sword
carried everything before them and surmounted
every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume
(of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there
was not more for me to read of the great life."

- Mahatma Ghandi


"In all things Muhammad was profoundly
practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died,
an eclipse occurred, and rumors of God's
personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon
Muhammad is said to have announced, "An
eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish
to attribute such things to the death or birth
of a human being." "At Muhammad's own death
an attempt was made to deify him, but the man
who was to become his administrative successor
killed the hysteria with one of the noblest
speeches in religious history: "If there are any
among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is
dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives
forever."

- James. A. Michener

I also conclude that Islam is stuck in the 600's and showing no inclination of coming into the 21'st Century. And many Muslims would claim that Islam is a MODERN religion? This is enlightenment? From a guy who is said to have uttered the above?

So please excuse me as I need to use the toilet. Was that right foot first? Or left? WWMD?

You have shown an inability to debate with reason, a lack of critical thinking. I'm done here.

And here  we have you, seeing google as the portal to your knowledge.
Trying to get the worst out of Islam out because of pride and ignorance. This all is not harming me, nor is it others.
But it does harm you a lot, for you will stay  blind.



If any of you do need a good book based on the life of Muhammad (pbuh).
Then the following link will give you one.

http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Life-Based-Earliest-Sources/dp/1594771537/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1294611828&sr=8-2

You don't need to be religious to read a book like that.
That book describes his characters, his problems and hsiw ay of life.

whether we believer or not, it is an inspiration to us all.

[LegendarySandwich]

So far, iSok, the only positive argument that you have given for the divinity of your holy book and the existence of your god that we have not debunked yet is that it supposedly predicted the speed of light, right?

Article.
And even if your claim was true, it can be chalked up to coincidence. I think I've already said in this thread that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (a quote from Carl Sagan). That is not extraordinary evidence.

[iSok]

So far, iSok, the only positive argument that you have given for the divinity of your holy book and the existence of your god that we have not debunked yet is that it supposedly predicted the speed of light, right?

Article.
And even if your claim was true, it can be chalked up to coincidence. I think I've already said in this thread that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (a quote from Carl Sagan). That is not extraordinary evidence.

I certainly think it does count as a evidence, it can't be mere coincidence.
About your article...The author of that website is Ali Sina, an iranian.
I saw another supposed 'contradiction in the Qur'an', so I started studying it.
And I found out he made a lot of deliberate mistakes in his article regarding translation. I e-mailed him about it
and asked him to explain. So far, I never got an e-mail back. 'Faithfreedom' is not really a reliabele source.
If you think it is, then you are free to do so.

Most people who are not anti-Islam, just say it's coincidence.

Anyway, let me give a summary.



First of all, let me repeat this argument.
There’s a verse in the Qur’an that says this.

"By which the angels and the Spirit, ascend to Him in one Day the duration of which is fifty thousand years."[Qur'an 70:4]

What this verse says is that Angels (beings of light, the Spirit is the ArchAngel Gabriel) ascend to Him in one day, and that day’s duration is fifty thousand years. To a mere man this makes no sense. The Qur’an is full of signs like these.

Einstein’s theory of relativity states that when two different objects travel at a different speed, they will experience time in a different way. For our  current topspeed (spaceshuttle) which we achieved, this difference is neglectable. But not for extreme high speeds.

The Lorentz equation helps, to determine the difference.

t’ = (1-v2/c2)-1/2 (t-vx/c2)

where v = speed traveled
c = the speed of light (5.88 x 1012 miles/year)
x = position in space (defined by the equation x2 = c2t2)
t’ and t (single day = 2.7397 x 10-3 years and 50.000 years) are the two different time perspectives.


If you put these values in the formule  (which are stated in the verse), you get the speed of what Angels travel. Do you know what that speed is?
It’s exactly the speed of light. Some say it could be a mere guess.
The author just came up with 1 day and 50.000 years. Even though that chance is very low, as you will all agree. The amazing part is, is the way it’s written.
 It’s not written: ‘Angels travel 50.000 times faster than humans’.  It’s written that they perceive a difference in time. Even today, intellectual who have never heard about the theory of relativity, will not understand this at all.
But a mere man somewhere in the desert came up with this?
How big are the odds? Really think about it…….just this one verse.



Here are further verses.

Qur’an on the fact that all matter came from one point and after it, it was parted. And that water is essential for life on our planet. (Something which we all agree upon)

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (The Qur'an, 21:30)

After the Big Bang, gas particles came together and formed high density matter.
Which is the cause of planets and stars. The Qur’an about this.

"Then He rose over (Istawâ) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: “Come both of you willingly or unwillingly.” They both said: “We come willingly." (Surat Fussilat (They are explained in detail):11).

The vastness of space and the ever expansion of space (The expansion was discovered by Hubble in 1920 I think)

"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." (The Qur'an, 51:47)


Qur’an on the fact that eventually this universe will seize to exist and up in a Black hole.
Especially take a look at the part ‘roll up like a scroll’. When time and space will be ‘rolled up’.
And a new universe will emerge, where creation will begin again.

"And (remember) the Day when We shall roll up the heaven like a scroll rolled up for books, As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it, (it is) a promise binding upon Us. Truly, We shall do it." (Quran 21:104)

The fact that Iron could not be made in our Solar system, since temperatures weren’t high enough. So it was sent down from outer space.
And today we see the benefits of Iron. Without Iron, it would be very hard to build skyscrapers, tunnels, bridges etc....


"…And We sent down iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind...." (The Qur'an, 57:25)


This verse, when it was revelated, people couldn’t believe it. Most of of them were shocked that there could be life also in outer space. So instead of that they just didn’t understand it.
They rather did not talk about it, because it could lead to doubts. Read it.
Once again, Heavens = universe in this verse.

(42:29) And of His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the living creatures that He has spread out in them. He has the power to bring them together when He so wills.


I hope these verses will make you think. Once again, they are not meant for preaching.
I think these verses will support my claims, since I explained them carefully. There are many verses like this, I didn’t quote them all.

The Qur’an is not just divine because of these verses. If we use our common sense and use our reason. Then how big is the chance that this all, just these couples of verses were made up?
The verse with the speed of light, that it was a chance..well that chance was certainly less than 1%.
Rather 0 in my opinion. And yet the Qur’an continues these verses. (I'll post more soon)


There are people on the internet (non muslims), they also understand by now that the Qur’an can’t be written by mankind. They blame aliens. Aliens wrote the Qur’an.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread545618/pg1
Just some food for your thoughts.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way, there is also a debate on youtube, in case you are interested.

Islam vs Atheism.

Hamza Andreas Tzortzis (Muslim convert)
Dr. Ed Buckner (President of the American Atheists)

here's the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI9owlpOQl0

[LegendarySandwich]

Once again, you're discounting the entire article because of its author. That's not how you win debates.

As for the rest of scriptures you posted, as I've said like, three times already, you're just taking vague statements and twisting them to be simplistic statements about the universe that we now know because of modern science.

[iSok]

Once again, you're discounting the entire article because of its author. That's not how you win debates.

As for the rest of scriptures you posted, as I've said like, three times already, you're just taking vague statements and twisting them to be simplistic statements about the universe that we now know because of modern science.

No doubt that Ali Sina is prejudiced towards Islam. I read some articles of him.
He's only fooling himself.

About the verses, I think they are as clear as can be.

'Joined  - one Core  - Universe  - Expanding', I really can't see another interpretation.

[Whitney]

iSok,

your response to the Koran contradictions was next to impossible to read; if you can't take the time to format your posts in a coherent manner don't expect anyone to understand what you are saying even if you had anything of value to present.

Give me your adress, I'll call Him.
So we can make an appointment, just for you, He will teleport in front of your house.
So that then you may believe.

A real personal god would not need some person to tell him where another lives and would have already made that personal visit if said god existed.

Simonsimon,

The answer to your question is no...I'm not going to take action on comments that do add to the discussion.  Please read the full context of comments before accusing someone of dragging down the discussion....if you can even call this a discussion considering I'm still not convinced the OP is interested in truly discussing since he isn't taking the time to write responses coherently (or perhaps is unable, in which case an English based board is not the place for him).

[Recusant]

I hope you have a bit of knowledge of physics, otherwise I'm willing to explain.


"By which the angels and the Spirit, ascend to Him in one Day the duration of which is fifty thousand years."[Qur'an 70:4]

Angels are made of light.

The lorentz transformations, I hope you understand a bit of physics.

t’ = (1-v2/c2)-1/2 (t-vx/c2)

where  v = speed traveled
c = the speed of light (5.88 x 1012 miles/year)
x = position in space (defined by the equation x2 = c2t2)
t’ and t (single day = 2.7397 x 10-3 years and 50.000 years)  are the two differing time perspectives.

Do you know what the answer will be for v (traveled speed by object) if you use those values for t' and t ?
yes indeed, the speed of light. Coincidence?

What that means is that two observers moving at different speeds will perceive time, size, and mass to be different. At speeds such as those traveled by humans in the present age, such differences are negligible.
Not when you travel at the speed of light.

The Prophet was actually illiterate, most people think he wrote the Qur'an.

Hello and welcome to HAF, iSok.  It's a pleasure to have a follower of Muhammad such as yourself stop by to discuss things here.  The above was one of the first pieces of evidence which you presented, and when I began working on this post I didn't think that it had been properly addressed.  Still, I want to specifically look at this evidence, and deal with it directly.  The article posted by LegendarySandwich was good, but there's nothing like the personal touch, I think.

Does not the Quran say that it is an unequivocal message, which can be clearly understood by all?  If so, then understanding the Lorentz transformations (which I'm sure you will agree, are understood by only a very small percentage of the population) should not be required to appreciate this passage.  However by all means let's look at this ayat (is that the correct term?) in light of the Lorenz transformations:

"By which the angels and the Spirit, ascend to Him in one Day the duration of which is fifty thousand years."

Let's do a little math:

v = c×sqrt (1-1/(50000×12×27.321661)^2) = .9999999999999981×c

So it appears that the Quran has more or less accurately predicted the speed of light.  This seems astonishing.  However, what if a different number for the "duration of the Day" is given.  An example might be 100,000.  Do you know what happens when that number is used instead of 50,000?  I'll bet you do.  It makes the result even closer to the actual speed of light. How about 1,000,000?  Amazing.  The prediction is even more accurate than before!  (And so on.)

Now let's go in the other direction shall we? Let's say that the Quran had said that the "duration of the day" had been a much more modest 1 year.  

v = c×sqrt (1-1/(1×12×27.321661)^2) = .999995348×c

Still amazingly accurate for somebody living in the 7th century, I'd say.  In other words, you can plug in any number between 1 and an arbitrarily large number, and your "prediction" will be "amazingly accurate."  What you've done is chosen a particular wording which was originally intended to show a supernatural quality of angels and  plugged a modern equation into it.  The problem is that "50,000" isn't much more astonishing that "1" , and is less astonishing than 1,000,000.  If this was evidence from Allah wouldn't you think that he would have wanted more accuracy, not less?  If he wanted to prove something to the modern infidel, you would think that he would have inspired his prophet to say that the, "duration of the day is 100,000 years" or some even larger number which would show the miraculous proof that the Quran predicted modern science even better than "50,000 years."

This really doesn't look like evidence to me.  It looks like some Muslim scholar had too much time on his hands and decided to glorify Allah by producing a dubious and very equivocal "proof" of the Quran's miraculous predictions of modern science.

(Thanks to "red25" at speed-light.info/forum.)

EDIT: For spelling

[Davin]

"By which the angels and the Spirit, ascend to Him in one Day the duration of which is fifty thousand years."[Qur'an 70:4]

What this verse says is that Angels (beings of light, the Spirit is the ArchAngel Gabriel) ascend to Him in one day, and that day’s duration is fifty thousand years. To a mere man this makes no sense. The Qur’an is full of signs like these.

Before we go on, explain how this verse describes this equation: "t’ = (1-v2/c2)-1/2 (t-vx/c2)", I may have not been very good at word problems, but I'm very sure that verse says nothing about powers, division... etc. that would result in the equation you're citing. Also what does that equation have anything to do with other than the verse you're citing?

It appears to me that this equation was made specifically to be used as evidence that this verse says that angels travel at the speed of light. The reason for this appearance is because as I stated before, this equation's only purpose is to show that this one verse is evidence of the Qur'an knowing the speed of light. Would it not have been easier for the verse to say that angel's travel at 299,792,458 metres per second? Then you wouldn't have to make up an equation to prove your point and the odds that it actually does show that some dude long ago understood the speed of light would be inarguable because it's specifically saying what the speed of light is... except of course for the chance of blind luck.

Qur’an on the fact that all matter came from one point and after it, it was parted. And that water is essential for life on our planet. (Something which we all agree upon)

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (The Qur'an, 21:30)

It said the heavens and the earth we're joined together as one, how are we to know what the dude meant with the word "heavens", for all we know he could have meant the sky and some pretty clouds. The second part doesn't say that water is essential for life, it clearly states that everything was made from water... and as far as I know of the elements and evolution, we weren't made from water.

After the Big Bang, gas particles came together and formed high density matter.
Which is the cause of planets and stars. The Qur’an about this.

"Then He rose over (Istawâ) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: “Come both of you willingly or unwillingly.” They both said: “We come willingly." (Surat Fussilat (They are explained in detail):11).

Could you show the context this verse has when in between other verses? What I normally see is that someone will claim a verse means X when it clearly doesn't while between the verses it is between. So do the previous verses to this show that this verse happens after the big bang or is this verse some random thing that you're just claiming explains what happened after the big bang.

Secondly I can see the stretch from smoke to gas, however the thing is clearly speaking to the Earth... when the heavens were smoke... which would indicate that the Earth was formed before the heavens were formed, which is very much at odds with what was right after the big bang.

The vastness of space and the ever expansion of space (The expansion was discovered by Hubble in 1920 I think)

"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." (The Qur'an, 51:47)

Is this implying that heaven is space? So you believe that when you die you go into space? I'll give that this one vaguely explains the expansion of the universe.

Qur’an on the fact that eventually this universe will seize to exist and up in a Black hole.
Especially take a look at the part ‘roll up like a scroll’. When time and space will be ‘rolled up’.
And a new universe will emerge, where creation will begin again.

"And (remember) the Day when We shall roll up the heaven like a scroll rolled up for books, As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it, (it is) a promise binding upon Us. Truly, We shall do it." (Quran 21:104)

For one, this is not a known fact and contradicts the previously quoted verse about universal expansion. Then it doesn't even explain anything about a black hole, it talks about rolling the universe up like a scroll... which is not the behavior of a black hole, even metaphorically.

The fact that Iron could not be made in our Solar system, since temperatures weren’t high enough. So it was sent down from outer space.
And today we see the benefits of Iron. Without Iron, it would be very hard to build skyscrapers, tunnels, bridges etc....


"…And We sent down iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind...." (The Qur'an, 57:25)

This verse doesn't explain the "fact that Iron could not be made in our Solar system, since temperatures weren’t high enough. So it was sent down from outer space." It says that some thing sent down iron, doesn't say from where, doesn't say it was just the element and not what one would find in the ground as ore, doesn't mention that heavy elements had to be forged in stars that exploded in order for us to have iron... in fact that verse explains almost nothing of what you explained it did.

This verse, when it was revelated, people couldn’t believe it. Most of of them were shocked that there could be life also in outer space. So instead of that they just didn’t understand it.
They rather did not talk about it, because it could lead to doubts. Read it.
Once again, Heavens = universe in this verse.

(42:29) And of His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the living creatures that He has spread out in them. He has the power to bring them together when He so wills.

What precedence do you have for saying that heavens = universe? Why does not heavens = sky? It also doesn't say that life existed in outer space, just that life was spread out on Earth and most probably the sky.

I hope these verses will make you think. Once again, they are not meant for preaching.
I think these verses will support my claims, since I explained them carefully. There are many verses like this, I didn’t quote them all.

The Qur’an is not just divine because of these verses. If we use our common sense and use our reason. Then how big is the chance that this all, just these couples of verses were made up?
The verse with the speed of light, that it was a chance..well that chance was certainly less than 1%.
Rather 0 in my opinion. And yet the Qur’an continues these verses. (I'll post more soon)

Star Trek had small portable talking devices, does that mean that Star Trek is divine because we now have cell phones? Star Trek had clones before we could clone anything, does that make Star Trek divine?  There are many more things in Star Trek (automatic doors) that did not exist until long after the series was canceled, given your reasoning, that would mean that you must accept the divinity of Star Trek.

[DJAkuma]

Star Trek had small portable talking devices, does that mean that Star Trek is divine because we now have cell phones? Star Trek had clones before we could clone anything, does that make Star Trek divine?  There are many more things in Star Trek (automatic doors) that did not exist until long after the series was canceled, given your reasoning, that would mean that you must accept the divinity of Star Trek.

I'm ok with accepting the great Gene Roddenberry as a true prophet. More things he predicted have come true than anything from vague books written by people in the middle east. Still waiting for my warp drive and transporters.

[KDbeads]

Star Trek had small portable talking devices, does that mean that Star Trek is divine because we now have cell phones? Star Trek had clones before we could clone anything, does that make Star Trek divine?  There are many more things in Star Trek (automatic doors) that did not exist until long after the series was canceled, given your reasoning, that would mean that you must accept the divinity of Star Trek.

I'm ok with accepting the great Gene Roddenberry as a true prophet. More things he predicted have come true than anything from vague books written by people in the middle east. Still waiting for my warp drive and transporters.

LMAO...............  This is just totally awesome.  Still waiting on the replicators myself

Ok, ya'll can go back to 'discussing'.....  I just had to  

[DJAkuma]

Star Trek had small portable talking devices, does that mean that Star Trek is divine because we now have cell phones? Star Trek had clones before we could clone anything, does that make Star Trek divine?  There are many more things in Star Trek (automatic doors) that did not exist until long after the series was canceled, given your reasoning, that would mean that you must accept the divinity of Star Trek.

I'm ok with accepting the great Gene Roddenberry as a true prophet. More things he predicted have come true than anything from vague books written by people in the middle east. Still waiting for my warp drive and transporters.

LMAO...............  This is just totally awesome.  Still waiting on the replicators myself

Ok, ya'll can go back to 'discussing'.....  I just had to  

You should see the cult of Scott Bakula at the local scifi conventions "His career died for your sins"

[KDbeads]

You should see the cult of Scott Bakula at the local scifi conventions "His career died for your sins"

giggle...........  

[DJAkuma]

You should see the cult of Scott Bakula at the local scifi conventions "His career died for your sins"

giggle...........  

They're kinda weird with their life-size cardboard cutout of their savior with blinking red lights in the eyes but the jello shots are nice.