Christ not destructive says Animated Dirt

[Gawen]

Most religion is bad. Even in my own denomination there are aspects of it which I see as destructive, however this does not therefore make the basis, Christ, destructive. It is the human influence and greed that makes it so.

Wow. That's like saying...
Most White Supremism/neo-Nazism is bad. Even in my own denomination there are aspects of it which I see as destructive, however this does not therefore make the basis, Hitler, destructive. It is the human influence and greed that makes it so.

And Jesus was human...or so they say...until the so-called Great Commission. Of course, this commission doesn't happen until he becomes a zombie:
Matthew 28:19-20: And [resurrected] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
What is the greatest of these commandments?
Mark 12:28-31: One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
Christians just can't seem to get it straight. Right here Jesus is telling everyone that can read that God is one; not one of three. But that looses sight of the tack I'm making. On to the Great Commission and what he taught the disciples what to teach everyone.

Christians do not seem to realise that Jesus' ministry, if one can call it that, was a ministry of an apocalyptic nature. How do we know this? Go back two chapters to find a lesser commission:
Matthew 10:5-7: ‘Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. As you go, proclaim the good news, “The kingdom of heaven is near.”
Of course, Mark, which was written first says it first in the first chapter:
Mark 1:14, 15: After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"
Now that we have the set-up, what DID Jesus teach? Well, I submit that whoever wrote it, Jesus’ main principle was preaching the end of the world with salvation (or the way to ACHIEVE salvation). Unfortunately, Jesus did not develop a full or coherent ethical system which would have provided a basis for teaching proper behavior and attitudes to gain salvation. Instead, there is a quilt of unclear and contradictory homilies and pronouncements.

So why does this make Christ dangerous? In short, here are his teachings:
•   Abandon all your Earthly ambitions.
•   Forsake your Earthly family and give your loyalty to God and your fellow believers.  
•   Sell everything you own and use the money to do good works.  
•   Avoid receiving any Earthly reward for your good works.  
•   Follow Mosaic Law, both the letter and the spirit of it.  
•   Abstain from all sin, inside and out;
•   Abstain from covetousness
•   Abstain from anger
•   Abstain from lust.
•   Abstain from adultery.  
•   Do WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO to abstain from lust.  
•   Practice strict nonviolent pacifism.
•   Do not resist evil.
•   Do not strike back.
•   Do good to those who hate you.  
•   Practice mercy and forgiveness and peacemaking.
•   Do not judge others; Judgment Day will come soon enough.  
•   Seek to purify your own character, strive to "be perfect, even as your father in Heaven is perfect."
•   Over-fulfill the Law seeking to follow the spirit of it as well as the letter.
•   Practice forgiveness, mercy, reconciliation, and peacemaking.
•   Kill those that do not believe.
•   Abstain from swearing false oaths.

Can anyone not see the danger inherent in the above? You know, I think it may be a good thought experiment to list as many 'dangerous' things one can glean from this list. Hopefully, believers will chime in and try to have us understand it all.

[Gawen]

20 looks? No one feel like thinking, I reckon.

[Heretical Rants]

zomg a long list of things you don´t like about christianity complete with a comparison to nazi germany

zomg zomg zomg

[AnimatedDirt]

Most religion is bad. Even in my own denomination there are aspects of it which I see as destructive, however this does not therefore make the basis, Christ, destructive. It is the human influence and greed that makes it so.

Wow. That's like saying...
Most White Supremism/neo-Nazism is bad. Even in my own denomination there are aspects of it which I see as destructive, however this does not therefore make the basis, Hitler, destructive. It is the human influence and greed that makes it so.

Hi Gawen, I've not been on over the weekend.  I was not ignoring you or this post.

If you don't understand Adventism, then you can't really understand the statement.  In short, Adventism tends to breed legalism, (why?  Because people take over as God's authority and tend to add rules or try themselves to enforce rules that needn't be followed as a "must do this or quit this first before...") that is a strict belief that being a Christian is a set of rules (just as you list below) to follow in order to gain/deserve salvation.  It's a gift that as gifts usually are, they are free and you didn't (necessarily) do anything for them.  But one thing to think about is the best and most meaningful gifts come from friends, not strangers.

And Jesus was human...or so they say...until the so-called Great Commission. Of course, this commission doesn't happen until he becomes a zombie:
Matthew 28:19-20: And [resurrected] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
What is the greatest of these commandments?
Mark 12:28-31: One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
Christians just can't seem to get it straight. Right here Jesus is telling everyone that can read that God is one; not one of three. But that looses sight of the tack I'm making. On to the Great Commission and what he taught the disciples what to teach everyone.

You seem to lose sight of Jesus claimed to serve the Father God and was His Son, and claimed Himself to be God by saying He is the I Am...so later when Jesus says He's leaving, but is sending the Holy Spirit, He is one part in three that make God.  It may be easiest to think of this as we think humans to be, Mind, body, and soul.  Maybe the soul part is less of a part to the Atheist, but certainly you can see a person being two things that make the one.

Christians do not seem to realise that Jesus' ministry, if one can call it that, was a ministry of an apocalyptic nature. How do we know this? Go back two chapters to find a lesser commission:
Matthew 10:5-7: ‘Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. As you go, proclaim the good news, “The kingdom of heaven is near.”
Of course, Mark, which was written first says it first in the first chapter:
Mark 1:14, 15: After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"
Now that we have the set-up, what DID Jesus teach? Well, I submit that whoever wrote it, Jesus’ main principle was preaching the end of the world with salvation (or the way to ACHIEVE salvation). Unfortunately, Jesus did not develop a full or coherent ethical system which would have provided a basis for teaching proper behavior and attitudes to gain salvation. Instead, there is a quilt of unclear and contradictory homilies and pronouncements.

So why does this make Christ dangerous? In short, here are his teachings:
•   Abandon all your Earthly ambitions.
•   Forsake your Earthly family and give your loyalty to God and your fellow believers.  
•   Sell everything you own and use the money to do good works.  
•   Avoid receiving any Earthly reward for your good works.  
•   Follow Mosaic Law, both the letter and the spirit of it.  
•   Abstain from all sin, inside and out;
•   Abstain from covetousness
•   Abstain from anger
•   Abstain from lust.
•   Abstain from adultery.  
•   Do WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO to abstain from lust.  
•   Practice strict nonviolent pacifism.
•   Do not resist evil.
•   Do not strike back.
•   Do good to those who hate you.  
•   Practice mercy and forgiveness and peacemaking.
•   Do not judge others; Judgment Day will come soon enough.  
•   Seek to purify your own character, strive to "be perfect, even as your father in Heaven is perfect."
•   Over-fulfill the Law seeking to follow the spirit of it as well as the letter.
•   Practice forgiveness, mercy, reconciliation, and peacemaking.
•   Kill those that do not believe.
•   Abstain from swearing false oaths.

Can anyone not see the danger inherent in the above? You know, I think it may be a good thought experiment to list as many 'dangerous' things one can glean from this list. Hopefully, believers will chime in and try to have us understand it all.

While I confess some things seem confusing, most of these fall under the "Text without a context is a pretext" and then there's the point that most of these in doing are not dangerous.  I'm not certain, for example, why it is dangerous to 'do good to those that hate you' or 'abstain from anger'...?

The dangerous part is taking these short bullet points as What God Teaches without seeking what they mean in context.

Gawen, the above post is very similar to legalistic thinking...the exact thing I am speaking of when I say that aspects of my own denomination are dangerous.  You know the basics...the rules as you see them, but have no understanding of the whole point.  To then blindly follow the 'rules' is to follow them because in your eyes they are black and white and you see the rules as the road to salvation.

[Gawen]

Welcome back AD. I wasn't going for the destructive qualities of any or various denominations. I was going for your statement that Jesus is not destructive. I've shown you a dozen or so alleged ethical (or moral) instructions laid down in three synoptic gospels, purporting to come from Jesus himself, showing the way to gain salvation. These instructions are dangerous simply because there is an underlying illogic that is predicated upon a false assumption, as I said above, the ethics of Jesus are apocalyptic in nature. These instructions become clashing, contradictory, equivocal, opposed and vacillating.  That in themselves are dangerous.

[Gawen]

zomg a long list of things you don´t like about christianity complete with a comparison to nazi germany

zomg zomg zomg

I suppose you could see that. Change the Hitler/National Socialism to Stalin/Stalinist Communism and you get the same idea. That was not, however, the idea I was putting across.
Secondly, I made no list of things I "don't like about Christianity". That list IS Christianity, whether one likes it or not.

[Heretical Rants]

Those who try to enforce all of those morals are considered to be nuts even by the rest of the Christians.  They prefer a more loving (or at least a less strict) form of Christianity.

[AnimatedDirt]

Welcome back AD. I wasn't going for the destructive qualities of any or various denominations. I was going for your statement that Jesus is not destructive. I've shown you a dozen or so alleged ethical (or moral) instructions laid down in three synoptic gospels, purporting to come from Jesus himself, showing the way to gain salvation. These instructions are dangerous simply because there is an underlying illogic that is predicated upon a false assumption, as I said above, the ethics of Jesus are apocalyptic in nature. These instructions become clashing, contradictory, equivocal, opposed and vacillating.  That in themselves are dangerous.

Likewise I could list out things others have said that are "dangerous" out of context.

You've listed these supposed "dangerous" instructions, but fail to supply the full context.  That's easy to do.  Lots of Christians promote sayings of Einstein in the same light...does that prove God...since we all seem to be of the same idea, that he was a genius and very intelligent?

[Gawen]

Welcome back AD. I wasn't going for the destructive qualities of any or various denominations. I was going for your statement that Jesus is not destructive. I've shown you a dozen or so alleged ethical (or moral) instructions laid down in three synoptic gospels, purporting to come from Jesus himself, showing the way to gain salvation. These instructions are dangerous simply because there is an underlying illogic that is predicated upon a false assumption, as I said above, the ethics of Jesus are apocalyptic in nature. These instructions become clashing, contradictory, equivocal, opposed and vacillating.  That in themselves are dangerous.

Likewise I could list out things others have said that are "dangerous" out of context.

You've listed these supposed "dangerous" instructions, but fail to supply the full context.  

I'm thinking you're not understanding. Once again I'll tell you that the overall context was apocalyptic in nature. The end of the world is near. Words were injected in the hero's mouth to show the way to salvation. The Jesus ministry taken out of Matthew, Mark and Luke was all about salvation and the way to achieve it.
If I am wrong, suppose you show me the correct context then. Or at least reconcile the above requirements in context. If you insist on sidestepping the points (Einstein for example), our discussion has nowhere to go and basically at an end.

[AnimatedDirt]

I'm thinking you're not understanding. Once again I'll tell you that the overall context was apocalyptic in nature. The end of the world is near. Words were injected in the hero's mouth to show the way to salvation. The Jesus ministry taken out of Matthew, Mark and Luke was all about salvation and the way to achieve it.
If I am wrong, suppose you show me the correct context then. Or at least reconcile the above requirements in context. If you insist on sidestepping the points (Einstein for example), our discussion has nowhere to go and basically at an end.

Wait...you listed the problems and "danger" points, and want me to go and find these all in context?  I can certainly give it a shot on a few, but all would amount to much that is already available with a simple search on the concept, online.  You made the list and said they are dangerous.

Even in "apocalyptic" in nature, how is returning good for to those that hate us dangerous?  In context (off the top of my head), it is not up to humans to be judge and executioner in "apocalyptic" matters.

[Gawen]

Frankly, I do not know a Christian that practices these requirements. Abstaining from adultery is about the only exemption. And since Jesus has (the above) requirements to get to Heaven, and that virtually all Christians do not or can not observe or fulfill all the requirements, they are in "danger"  of never making it to the pearly gates, let alone through them.

Animated dirt is going to have a fun time reconciling these requirements. And of course, these are Christian Family Values (â,,¢) as they are considered moral or ethical teachings. It's going to be difficult to reconcile "Forsake your Earthly family and give your loyalty to God and your fellow believers" with family values. What about "Practice strict nonviolent pacifism" with "Kill those that do not believe"?

These are pretty much absolutes. Don't do this....don't do that. Do this....do that. So what makes them dangerous? Well, look at Westboro Baptist Church; Jim Jones for a couple examples. But why pick on them? Because they pick and choose. They read into THEIR context of what scripture means. It's why there have been 36,000 denominations of Christianity. There's an awful lot of abstaining in these requirements. Dangerous in that they seek to dehumanify (new word - I reckon if Sarah Palin can make a new word, I can as well) the masses.

I'm waiting for the next Crusade where it is righteous to "Kill those that do not believe". But then again, we have Northern Ireland most of Africa and Bosnia until that happens.

[Gawen]

Wait...you listed the problems and "danger" points, and want me to go and find these all in context?

Why not? You have to take off the god-goggles to see it.

I can certainly give it a shot on a few, but all would amount to much that is already available with a simple search on the concept, online.

I would have expected you had done this in your last post.

You made the list and said they are dangerous.
Even in "apocalyptic" in nature, how is returning good for to those that hate us dangerous?  In context (off the top of my head), it is not up to humans to be judge and executioner in "apocalyptic" matters.

Because you cannot reconcile it with other utterances of Jesus. One is free to pick and choose what they want to believe or what context they want to have it in. Jesus was a lousy teacher. He'd have never made a philosophy professor.

[Sophus]

I don't think the idea of Jesus as a good teacher or a revolutionary character is dangerous, but I do think once you start to worship something that spells out trouble.

[AnimatedDirt]

Frankly, I do not know a Christian that practices these requirements. Abstaining from adultery is about the only exemption. And since Jesus has (the above) requirements to get to Heaven, and that virtually all Christians do not or can not observe or fulfill all the requirements, they are in "danger"  of never making it to the pearly gates, let alone through them.

What is dangerous is someone spouting off ideas of which he/she has just exhibited here has no clue to how salvation works.  It would be best to either search online for the meaning of the Gospel or simply quit regurgitating false claims.

[Heretical Rants]

It might also help to not try to apply old testament laws, and ignore that Jesus dude when he says to rip your eyes out or cut your dick off, "For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell." (though this is perfectly logical assuming sin/hell in the context of the pre-crucifixion days of no salvation)