Christ not destructive says Animated Dirt

[Voter]

Christians do not seem to realise that Jesus' ministry, if one can call it that, was a ministry of an apocalyptic nature.

Plenty of Christians realize this. That's why historically there's no shortage of apocalyptic sects, usually built around Matthew and Revelation. Further, there are OT prophecies that can be read as indicating the end times would come with the messiah.

However, Paul explains that the current age was kept secret by God, and Christ will return. And, there are OT prophecies, particularly the suffering messiah passages, that don't work well with end times following the messiah.

It's more complex than you seem to know.

[AnimatedDirt]

It might also help to not try to apply old testament laws, and ignore that Jesus dude when he says to rip your eyes out or cut your dick off, "For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell." (though this is perfectly logical assuming sin/hell in the context of the pre-crucifixion days of no salvation)

Misquotes lead to misinterpretations.

[LoneMateria]

However, Paul explains that the current age was kept secret by God, and Christ will return.

Because you should always trust Paul over Jesus right?  Mark 9:1

Also where exactly does he say this?

And, there are OT prophecies, particularly the suffering messiah passages, that don't work well with end times following the messiah.

Which passages were these?

Misquotes lead to misinterpretations

I'm glad you figured out it was a misquote.  So what exactly is your criteria for this assertion?  Do you just not agree with it therefore it is a misquote?

I think we've lost focus here on the topic at hand.  Is Jesus destructive?  I don't think so.  I think belief is destructive.  Here's why.  Jesus was a Jewish preacher who preached to the Jewish people about the Jewish god and was someone who followed Jewish customs and practiced the Jewish law.  He was an apocalyptic Jew who believed that it was the end of days and was eventually executed as a criminal for sedition.  His life wasn't taken to paper until 40-70 years after his death by people who never knew or spoke the same language as Jesus or his followers.  Jesus was no more destructive then any other priest or preacher of his day.

The belief in Jesus (or other deities) on the other hand is destructive.  You don't have to be an abortion doctor shooter, a priest who uses the bible to condone the slavery of a race, a member of a church who fights to remove evolution from biology books but benefits from up to date vaccinations, a priest who "exorcises demons" by beating small children with sticks, a catholic priest pedophile, a war enthusiastic redneck who justifies war with the bible,  or any of the other millions of examples that show crazy people justifying their craziness based on religion, to see how belief can be destructive.  Belief gives people justification for thoughts and actions when and where no other is present.  Some of it is harmless, but some of it is destructive and just crazy.  Jesus will protect me on my drive home no matter how much I drink.  I believe my habits and lifestyle won't affect the world and if i'm wrong the rapture is right around the corner anyway.  I can afford not to study for that test, I believe (insert deity) will help me pass it.  Jesus I need you to ignore the children dying from drinking contaminated water oversees and help me figure out if I should tell my friend her husband is cheating on her.   If we had a more realistic view of reality maybe we could avoid suffering and become a little more sane.  You know so the human race doesn't blow itself up over whether or not to listen what to a Jew (Jesus) or a Pedophile (Muhammad) may or may not have said.

[Heretical Rants]

It might also help to not try to apply old testament laws, and ignore that Jesus dude when he says to rip your eyes out or cut your dick off, "For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell." (though this is perfectly logical assuming sin/hell in the context of the pre-crucifixion days of no salvation)

Misquotes lead to misinterpretations.

Oho? and what's your interpretation?


From Matthew 5, King James version:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
"And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. "

Even if he's not talking about literal dismemberment, it's still freaky.

[Voter]

Because you should always trust Paul over Jesus right?  Mark 9:1

1 And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”

I'm missing the connection between my statement and this verse. Can you explain?

Also where exactly does he say this?

A number of places. Here's one:
1 Cor 2
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

And we can see that the current age is a parenthetical to the prophetic plan here:

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Although you should read all of Romans 9-11.

Which passages were these?

Isaiah 53 is the best known example.

[LoneMateria]

I'm missing the connection between my statement and this verse. Can you explain?

Sure.  We are referring to the apocalypse and specifically Jesus being an apocalyptic preacher.  You stated that Paul claims the current age was kept secret by God.  In the context of your post this means that the apocalypse will come later and that no one can know when that is.  This is a pretty common position by  Christians today because every prediction that has ever been made has so far been wrong.  The reason I quoted Mark 9:1 is because that was Jesus speaking.  In his own view not everyone in his audience will die before the apocalypse happens/kingdom of God comes into power.  This was what he supposedly said 2,000 years ago.  Still hasn't happened and Paul is trying to find a work around

A number of places.

Thank you for the quotes.  I wanted 2 things from you finding those and reading them.  1st I honestly wanted to make sure you knew what you were talking about.  2nd why do you think this topic has been covered in so many places?  The Apocalypse was expected by masses just like Jesus expected it to happen and ... well you can plainly see we are here.  This was a big problem for the early churches that Paul was trying to maintain.  In Christianity it has been the end since the beginning.

Isaiah 53 is the best known example.

In that passage it does not once refer to the Messiah.  Do you have another example?

[AnimatedDirt]

Oho? and what's your interpretation?

From Matthew 5, King James version:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
"And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. "

Even if he's not talking about literal dismemberment, it's still freaky.

Did I say you misinterpreted?  Even so, then since you understand it better than you quote it, what is "freaky" about it?  Is it any different than the guy that was hiking in Utah, fell in and managed to get his arm wedged between rocks, was there for a couple of days (I don't remember exactly how many days) and eventually cut his own arm off to save his life?  Freaky, yes.  But he lived.  If God is true, and there's no way to prove God aside from God Himself doing so, then the above statement rings with the same truth as the hiker and his arm who simply saved his physical life.  Jesus is speaking of the individual and his/her soul or life eternal...as He claims to give.

So...did you misquote?

[Voter]

Sure.  We are referring to the apocalypse and specifically Jesus being an apocalyptic preacher.  You stated that Paul claims the current age was kept secret by God.  In the context of your post this means that the apocalypse will come later and that no one can know when that is.  This is a pretty common position by  Christians today because every prediction that has ever been made has so far been wrong.  The reason I quoted Mark 9:1 is because that was Jesus speaking.  In his own view not everyone in his audience will die before the apocalypse happens/kingdom of God comes into power.  This was what he supposedly said 2,000 years ago.  Still hasn't happened and Paul is trying to find a work around

There's a number of problems with this.

First, Mark 9:1 simply says some will see the kingdom of god. Many take the very next verses - the transfiguration - as fulfilment. Personally I lean toward John and Revelation as fulfilment. There are other passages which would be stronger on your side, but they'll give you other problems.

Next, Paul wasn't "trying to find a work around" unless you admit he's prophetic, as those mentioned in Mark 9:1 and elsewhere hadn't all died yet. Further, you would need a very early date of writing of Mark or a very strong oral tradition, otherwise there's nothing for him to "work around" at the time of writing.

In that passage it does not once refer to the Messiah.  Do you have another example?

I think the messianic interpetation of Isaiah 53 is best, but that should be pursued in another thread.

Another passage is Zechariah 12:10 and surrounding verses.

[Gawen]

From Matthew 5, King James version:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
"And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. "

Is it any different than the guy that was hiking in Utah, fell in and managed to get his arm wedged between rocks, was there for a couple of days (I don't remember exactly how many days) and eventually cut his own arm off to save his life?

If you cannot tell the theological difference between the scripture above and the guy that cut off his arm, then I'm done with you.

...the above statement rings with the same truth as the hiker and his arm who simply saved his physical life.  Jesus is speaking of the individual and his/her soul or life eternal...as He claims to give.

I'm done.

[Gawen]

At any rate, what can possibly be so dangerous as:
MT 5:29-30, 18:8-9, MK 9:43-47: If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. (Note: Many believers insist that this admonition and others like it are to be taken figuratively, although others take even this admonition literally. The problem is that there is no clear and decisive method to determine whether a passage is meant to be taken literally or figuratively. God could have foreseen this problem and should have provided an unambiguous solution.
MT 5:38-44: Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies. Do good to those that hate you. Doesn't do much for self preservation.
MT 5:42, LK 6:30, 35: Give to everyone who asks. Lend to everyone who wants to borrow.
MT 6:25-34, LK 12:22-31: Take no thought for tomorrow. God will take care of you. It makes me wonder what all the people on Titanic thought of this.
Mt 10: 15; Mt 11: 25: “…because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." This implies belief through faith and trumps education, critical thinking and intellectual honesty.
MT 19:12, Rom 8:13: Men should consider castration, thereby making themselves eunuchs, for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. If you live after the flesh, you shall die, but if you put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live. If this had actually been done, Christianity would have died out long ago.
Mk 10:29, Lk 18:29: A man who leaves his house, wife, brothers, parents, or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will receive special rewards. And they talk about family values.
Lk 14:26: One cannot be a disciple of Jesus unless he hates his mother, father, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and even his own life. What a wonderful family valued man, that Luke.
Rom 1:26-27, 32: Men and women who commit unnatural sexual acts deserve to die. Of course, this is laid out in detail in the bible of what unnatural sex acts are. It's a really good thing Christian men and women who play butt darts, BDSM, masturbate each other and oral sex are not committing unnatural sex acts. I'm not real sure if Christians are stoned for adultery or homosexual acts these days.
Rom 13:1-4, PE 2:13-14: Be subject to every human institution. All authorities (laws and governments) are from God. Anyone care to remember Nazi Germany or Stalin?
1Cor 10:24: Put your neighbor's good ahead of your own. One could write a masters thesis on this alone.
Cor 1:9: “But we had the sentence of death in ourselves,  that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.”
Cn 2:8: Philosophy is to be shunned.
Thes 1:10-11: There are many who must be silenced.
Jn 5:14-15: Use prayer and anointing to cure illness.

I don't know how many other instances of scripture that are detrimental of life, body and social development. I don't know how many associations or institutions that would be considered dangerous due to Jesus, but here's a few:
American Spectator.

American Center for Law and Justice led by Marion "Pat" Robertson.

America's Promise Ministries. Anti-Semetic group.

Amway Corporation. Extensive ties with the Council for National Policy and provides funds bigoted causes.

Aryan Nations.  

Bill Bright, Campus Crusade for Christ. One of the more notable hate groups seeking to replace the Constitution with a strange brand of theocracy.

Billy Falling, Christian Voters League. Ties to LifeLine and the Randal Terry terrorist.  

Christian Association of PrimeTimers. Targets senior citizens and uses the money that retired people give to work toward destroying the Constitution and installing their brand of theocracy.

Chalcedon Foundation. Wishes to discard the Constitution and install themselves as the leaders of a theocracy.

Christian Coalition.

Christian Reconstructionism. These Christians focus on discarding the Constitution and the Democratic Republic in favor of theocracy. Like most fundamentalist Christians, this hate group also wishes to execute homosexuals. One of the most vocal bigots representing this hate movement is George Grant.

Citizens for Excellence in Education. Organization attempts to get State-sanction invocation to the Christian deities and creationism imposed in the public schools; includes the replacement of public schools with fundamentalist Christian schools paid for by tax dollars.

Collegiate Network. Impose State-sanctioned prayer to the Christian gods in public schools and stop sex education in public schools. Agenda includes the replacement of public schools with fundamentalist Christian schools paid for by tax dollars.

Concerned Women for America. Anti-abortion, anti-woman, and anti-homosexual rhetoric though a minor publication ironically aimed at women.

Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. Anti Constitution and would install a theocracy in their own image. The hate group is violently homophobic and anti-woman and anti-ACLU. The membership is vocally homophobic.  Ties to the Rushdoony cult and Christian reconstructionist racist groups. Ties with the "Center for Christian Statesmanship,".  Co-conspirators include David Barton and Randall Terry -- two domestic terrorist leaders. Also conspires with Gary North, and Pete Peters. Has ties to the "Coalition on Revival" and the so-called "Christian Coalition."

Council for Conservative Citizens. Racism with special focus upon anti-Semitism.

Council for National Policy. Very secret but not so secret organization which works to discard the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and seeks to impose theocracy in America -- theocracy done-up in their own image. Ties with Dobson and Focus On the Family cult. The group meets in secret yet Freedom Writer manages to `slip' reporters into their gatherings. At the Feb 7, 1998 gathering, former U.S. Attorney General Edwin Meese, former U.S. Vice President Dan Quayle, Steve Forbes, Phyllis Schlafly, and Christian Coalition president Donald Hodel attended.

Focus on the Family. One of the most blatant homophobic groups. Finances Promise Keeper cult to some extent. Sells fear to the gullible over the radio then sells books, tapes, tracts, magazines, et al. to the gullible to "solve" their problems. Fredric L. Rice has/had personal involvement with this hate group.

Free Congress Foundation.

Heartland Institute.

Institute for Justice.

Jack Chick Publications. The cult tries to make its followers believe that there is a world-wide conspiracy of "Satanists" and "witches" in America which kidnap, torture, murder, and have eaten around 300,000 babies. Since there is no evidence, law enforcement agencies are obviously involved in the conspiracy. This cult hates Pagans and Wiccans most of all.

Jerry Falwell. Thankfully he's dead, but he had followers.

Jim Wickstrom. Christian Identity master with strong ties to the "Posse Comitatus," a cult which hates Jews and blames abortions on vague, unspecified "Jewish Doctors."  

John Ashcroft, United States Senator from Missouri. This clown wants to destroy the Constitution and construct a strange theocracy -- presumably with himself in charge.

Ku Klux Klan.  

Landmark Legal Foundation. Funds attempts to create tax-subsidized religious schools.

Lifeline Long Distance. Intolerance for homosexuals and use 10% of their revenues to finance anti-abortion agendas and anti-homosexual laws. Also verified to be financing Operation Rescue and the so-called Army of God. This hate group makes no apology for what it does.

Lyndon LaRouche. This hate monger is a very good example of what a belief in the Christian mythologies can do to someone when they are pathologically paranoid and hate-filled.

Manhatten Institute.

Nation of Islam.

National Association of Scholars.

National Empowerment Television.

National Interest.

National Right to Life.

New Criterion.

Operation Rescue. A domestic terrorist organization responsible for the murder of abortion providers. Cult leader Randal Terry preaches hatred and ignorance and the submission of females to their male masters, advocates the abolishment of the Constitution and the removal of women from the work force. Jeff White as puppet leader controlled by Terry.

Parental Freedom in Education. Funds attempts to create tax-subsidized religious schools and attempts to sneak cult followers into public school boards through second or third-hand organizations.

Partners Advancing Values in Education. Funds attempts to create tax-subsidized religious schools.

Pete Peters. He and his groups demand that Jews are controlling the world in conjunction with a so-called "New World Order" within which the United Nations will be taking over the United States.

Policy Research Institute. Funds attempts to create tax-subsidized religious schools. Agenda includes the replacement of public schools with fundamentalist Christian schools paid for by tax dollars.

Phineas Priesthood. The title "Phineas" is used by many Christian hate groups. The name is taken from the classical Christian mythology where Phineas murders married couple because they were of different races.

Promise Keepers. Anti-woman, anti-homosexual hate group. The rhetoric is that the Christian gods sanction the violent "taking back" of male's dominion over women -- all for the little woman's own good.

Public Interest.

Rodney O. Skurdal. Blatantly and vocally anti-woman bigot.

Scientology.  

Stormfront White Nationists.

The Army of God. Much like Operation Rescue only this one takes responsibility for their terrorist activities. This Christian group claims the responsibility for several abortion clinic bombing, including the now-infamous double-bombing specifically intended to murder the rescue workers aiding victims in the first blast.

The Bradly Foundation. Agenda includes the replacement of public schools with fundamentalist Christian schools paid for by tax dollars.

The Church of Jesus Christ Christian. Ideologically similar to Aryan Nations and Ku Klux Klan.  

The Heritage Foundation. Finances racist "research" such as the book "The Bell Curve."

The Institute for Historic Review. Anti-Semitic  

Jewish Defense League. The FBI has listed the JDL as a terrorist organization.

The John M. Olin Foundation.

The Moral Majority.  

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Leadership of this organization is becoming more and more Muslim. The hiring policy of this organization is racist and elitist. The group has historically done much good for society yet has become ever more corrupt over the years.

The Order. This hate group lead by Bob Mathews, which focuses on racism and abortion. He and his cult like to demand that abortion in the United States is "the suicide of the white race".

The Rutherford Institute.  

The Sarah Scaife Foundation.

The Sword and the Cross. Nnti-Semitic hate group.

The Union-Leader (newspaper.) Right-wing extremist publication.

Traditional Values Coalition. Anti-homosexual hate group; attempts to make people believe there is no such thing as a separation of church and State.

U. S. Tax Payers Party. Actively supports the domestic terrorist group Operation Rescue.

Voting Integrity Project.

West Minister Academy. Ties to the Knox Theological Seminary; a private school wherein children are taught to hate.

Westboro Baptist Church, Topeka, Kansas. Rev. Fred Phelps.

White Aryan Resistance.

Virginia Trinitarian Pro-nomian Alliance (VTPA.) Overthrow the Constitution and remove the Bill of Rights. The followers are Christian Reconstructionists, which attempt to install theocracy in the United States.

Praise Jesus...there's nothing dangerous in you and your teachings...

[Voter]

Seems that since you can't beat AD's position, you're just burying him with more items than he probably has time to address.

[LoneMateria]

but that should be pursued in another thread.

I think we've gotten off-topic too.  I'll repost your last post in a new thread and we can pick up there ^_^

[Gawen]

Seems that since you can't beat AD's position, you're just burying him with more items than he probably has time to address.

I'm beating and burying him with more items Christians can't or won't address without special pleading and wishful thinking.

[Achronos]

Just to clarify Jesus wasn't a philosopher. He is what, rather Whom, the philosophers seek.

[LegendarySandwich]

Just to clarify Jesus wasn't a philosopher. He is what, rather Whom, the philosophers seek.

philosopher:
# a specialist in philosophy
# a wise person who is calm and rational; someone who lives a life of reason with equanimity
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