How do we know we know?

[idiotsavant]

My oblivion isn’t an act.  I’m disappointed to find things I take for granted, such as the weaknesses and strengths inherent in males and females, are oblique to the intelligent Atheist.  I expected you all to be better read.  Your double standard is irritating, (you can say “pinko commie”, but I can’t say “such a girl”).  I really am surprised by your bias.  But hey, I came to Rome, and the onus is mine.  I’ll try to stay off your tender toes.  

So then, getting back to the OP:

I’ve heard that Atheists have the same background programs running as Christians.  I’m kinda leaning that way so far, so I’d like to throw this ball on the court and see where it bounces.

I know many Christians who don’t experience God as I do.   Logic fails to prove His exitance, so without experience why do they believe?  What are they standing on?    

Has anyone ever proved a Creator God does not exist?   Can logic take us there?   How did you get there?   And what are you standing on?   If it’s not pure logic, is it faith?  

How do you know what you know?

Peace - I/s

anyone?

[mama_ape]

So then, getting back to the OP:

I’ve heard that Atheists have the same background programs running as Christians.  I’m kinda leaning that way so far, so I’d like to throw this ball on the court and see where it bounces.

I know many Christians who don’t experience God as I do.   Logic fails to prove His exitance, so without experience why do they believe?  What are they standing on?    

Has anyone ever proved a Creator God does not exist?   Can logic take us there?   How did you get there?   And what are you standing on?   If it’s not pure logic, is it faith?  

How do you know what you know?

Peace - I/s

anyone?

This topic had really gone around and around it sprained a couple of my synapses once or twice. :hmm:

[elliebean]

My oblivion isn’t an act.  I’m disappointed to find things I take for granted, such as the weaknesses and strengths inherent in males and females, are oblique to the intelligent Atheist.

The very definition of willful ignorance.

I expected you all to be better read.

I would expect any idiot to be well read enough to be able to distnguish a statistic from inherent truth.

So then, getting back to the OP:

How do you know what you know?

Looks like we have your answer:

I take for granted

[Whitney]

So then, getting back to the OP:

Has anyone ever proved a Creator God does not exist?   Can logic take us there?   How did you get there?   And what are you standing on?   If it’s not pure logic, is it faith?  

How do you know what you know?

anyone?

Perhaps no one has answered your question because it is generally  a straw man...most atheists are not gnostic atheists so most of us would not claim to have definite knowledge that absolutely no god exists.  Defacto Atheists simply don't believe because there is no reason to believe...much like how most people don't believe that little green men live on mars.

[idiotsavant]

This is helpful.  The Straw Man would be the default, and an honest person would add, “But ya never know...”

Religion is an evil machine. Cruel and destructive.  It uses guilt and shame to incite fear - the mind killer.  Fear brings torment, but Jesus is called the Price of Peace, how can those Christians be so oblique?  

And speaking of oblique:

My oblivion isn’t an act..

The very definition of willful ignorance..

ob·liv·i·onâ€, â€,/əˈblɪviÉ™n/ [uh-bliv-ee-uhn] â€"noun
1.the state of being completely forgotten or unknown: a former movie star now in oblivion.
2.the state of forgetting or of being oblivious: the oblivion of sleep.
3.official disregard or overlooking of offenses; pardon; amnesty.
Origin: 1350â€"1400; ME < MF < L oblÄ«viōn- (s. of oblÄ«viō), equiv. to oblÄ«v(Ä«scÄ«) to forget + -iōn- -ion; see ob-

I favor the first two.

I would expect any idiot to be well read enough to be able to distinguish a statistic from inherent truth.

You may be half right here.  I suppose it's an assumption to jump from statistic to inherent, but isn't that why we study behavior?  Maybe not.  Please elucidate.  As for the other half - you might want to rethink idiocy.

I take for granted

I see.  You chose the Straw Man default.  Where are you on the scale?  

Hey Sophus! What do you think?

Peace -I/s

[Davin]

This is helpful.  The Straw Man would be the default, and an honest person would add, “But ya never know...”

So in order to be honest one must add the obvious to the end of every statement they are not completely sure of? I find it much more dishonest to say that, "god exists but I have no verifiable evidence" than to just say, "I don't believe in a god."

The default is much less of a straw man than you try to make it seem; the default should be the starting position on thinking that something is not true and before telling others that it is true, you should provide the evidence for it. Now I don't really care if people personally believe in things without evidence, but I find it funny that people go out saying things are true without any decent evidence. By "decent evidence" I mean things that are demonstrable, independently verifiable and predictable.

For an answer to the OP's question: if the goal is absolute knowledge, well that doesn't exist... we could break it all the way down to making everything pointless by saying, "can you even trust anything your senses are telling you?" What I consider knowing is what I can demonstrate and show others how to verify. If I'm wrong, eventually someone will tell me and provide evidence that I'm wrong or show me where I made a logical error.

[idiotsavant]

So in order to be honest one must add the obvious to the end of every statement they are not completely sure of?

Only to ourselves...

I find it much more dishonest to say that, "god exists but I have no verifiable evidence" than to just say, "I don't believe in a god."

Apples and oranges.  Statement vs belief, but I think I got your drift.

The default is much less of a straw man than you try to make it seem;

Straw Man = “God is”.  Default = “God is not”.

the default should be the starting position

Yes, that was my point, but on this subject, is the default not arbitrary?

By "decent evidence" I mean things that are demonstrable, independently verifiable and predictable.

Standard scientific process, and there’s the rub.  What type of demonstration would satisfy you?  If the blind see, the deaf hear and the dead walk, would you not find an alternative explanation?  Logic fails to prove anything here.

if the goal is absolute knowledge, well that doesn't exist... we could break it all the way down to making everything pointless by saying, "can you even trust anything your senses are telling you?" What I consider knowing is what I can demonstrate and show others how to verify. If I'm wrong, eventually someone will tell me and provide evidence that I'm wrong or show me where I made a logical error.

I would say the goal is to know absolute truth.  And again you touch on logic’s waterloo.  All understanding is based on some assumption.  We gotta start somewhere.  I choose to believe my senses, even though logic says, “But have you considered...”  I’ve experienced God in many ways.  There’s a connection.  I can feel it, but I can’t define it.  

Such is my reality.  I feel sorry for those raised in religion.  She’s a whore - deceptive and deadly.  (Before you get all up in arms pinkocommie, I’m quoting Revelations 18 - Mystic Babylon, an enemy of God’s children...)

Peace - I/s

[Whitney]

/////EDUCATION BREAK\\\\\\

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

This education break has been brought to you by the all powerful Wikipedia.  

[idiotsavant]

Bless you child.  How are you relating straw man to our topic?

[Sophus]

You know, I thought about repling but everything seems to go in one ear and out the other.

[elliebean]

Exactly. Except it comes out all sticky and smelly.

[Sophus]

I do, however, feel compelled to address how you think the Bible says hell is not eternal. Read these: Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; Revelation 14:11. The verse you had mentioned can just as easily be interpreted in a different manner, however it would not surprise me if it is in fact a contradiction to these.

[Davin]

The default is much less of a straw man than you try to make it seem;

Straw Man = “God is”.  Default = “God is not”.

Wrong: positive: "God is", neutral: "nothing", negative: "God isn't", the neutral should be the default to start with.

the default should be the starting position

Yes, that was my point, but on this subject, is the default not arbitrary?

What you claimed was the default is not arbitrary and there is good reason to think that "God is not" just like there is good reason to think that leprechauns do not exist. But the default on leprechauns should be the same starting point of just not having any position on the matter. Just someone saying "I feel that leprechauns exist" is not evidence. If that person goes on to say that you must believe in leprechauns then they should be providing the evidence of the leprechauns existence. The same should be for any god.

By "decent evidence" I mean things that are demonstrable, independently verifiable and predictable.

Standard scientific process, and there’s the rub.  What type of demonstration would satisfy you?  If the blind see, the deaf hear and the dead walk, would you not find an alternative explanation?  Logic fails to prove anything here.

Think really hard about what makes you believe in a god. Make a short list of the top three things that convince you that there is a god, then let me know.

if the goal is absolute knowledge, well that doesn't exist... we could break it all the way down to making everything pointless by saying, "can you even trust anything your senses are telling you?" What I consider knowing is what I can demonstrate and show others how to verify. If I'm wrong, eventually someone will tell me and provide evidence that I'm wrong or show me where I made a logical error.

I would say the goal is to know absolute truth.  And again you touch on logic’s waterloo.  All understanding is based on some assumption.  We gotta start somewhere.  I choose to believe my senses, even though logic says, “But have you considered...”  I’ve experienced God in many ways.  There’s a connection.  I can feel it, but I can’t define it.

I trust my senses as well, but not always my assumptions of the senses. When I went to church I got some warm fuzzy feelings and thought that it meant something special, until I started going into mosh pits and discovered I got the same kind of feelings from the rush of the music and "dancing" around knocking people and getting knocked. The point is, just because I had a feeling and others told me that that feeling was one thing, doesn't mean that I don't trust that I got the feeling, just what other people said the feeling was. The feeling by the way is very common for people known as dopamine (and other natural chemicals) releases in the brain brought on by various causes including the same things that happen in church. It's easy to look up the effects of dopamine releases and how they are triggered.

Such is my reality.  I feel sorry for those raised in religion.  She’s a whore - deceptive and deadly.  (Before you get all up in arms pinkocommie, I’m quoting Revelations 18 - Mystic Babylon, an enemy of God’s children...)

Peace - I/s

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin Franklin

[idiotsavant]

You know, I thought about replying but everything seems to go in one ear and out the other.

I’ve reviewed our dialog Sophus.  I’ve answered all your questions, commented on your statements, and challenged your assumptions.  What is it I missed?

Exactly. Except it comes out all sticky and smelly.

He/she who insults the best wins?  Sophomoric Inteligencia.  How original.

Wrong: positive: "God is", neutral: "nothing", negative: "God isn't", the neutral should be the default to start with.

I’ve been thinking about this for some time.  At first I thought it wouldn’t work because “nothing” would include “God isn’t”, but then I realized I was neutral when I asked God if He was real.  I didn’t care one way or the other, so I’m thinking neutral is the balance point between “is” and “is not”, where either is equally possible.

Think really hard about what makes you believe in a god. Make a short list of the top three things that convince you that there is a god, then let me know.

1.  I met Him, when I didn’t expect too.  (I was neutral)
2.  I’ve experienced instantaneous physical healings.  (a.k.a. miracles)
3.  Everything He has told me would happen in my life has happened.  
All three reasons are based on experience, but, like you, I don’t totally trust my interpretations.  So I find I must choose between faith and reason.  I don’t find reason superior, and I have found faith more beneficial.

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin Franklin

At some point, the two always become mutually exclusive, but it is a biased mind that views one of the two superior.
 
Your avatar looks familiar; is it a painting?  

Peace - I/s

[karadan]

I was once convinced everyone i came into contact with had previously been told about me and knew of my arrival. If i went to the shop, the shopkeeper would look at me as i passed goods across the counter. In her eyes i could see the recognition. She knew who i was and had been told something about me. I would walk out of that shop feeling terrified and i'd hole myself up in my room for the rest of the day. If i passed anyone in the street, they'd immediately start whispering to each other about me. One might even cock an eye back at me with a snigger or sneer. What was their agenda? I couldn't be sure. It was sinister, though. I wasn't sleeping very well and i found myself, in the dead of night, asking for help. I just needed someone to help me. Why did the entire planet have an agenda against me? Could god save me? One thing was for sure, my friends weren't up to the task. They just kept telling me it was all in my head. I started to believe some of them were in on the conspiracy as well. Maybe if i tested them to see if they really were in on it, i'd get the proof i was looking for and blow the lid off this whole damn thing. All i needed was a plan...

A couple of weeks before, i was at a festival. We'd had a very fun first day and the sun was starting to set. Unfortunately i'd left my tobacco tin on the grass where we'd previously been sitting. When i came back it was gone. I was gutted. All my weed and other supplements were in it. Resigned to this, i decided to find another purveyor. I found some dude in the corner of a very loud drum n' bass tent. He shoved a few things in my hand and i duly paid him. He looked dodgy but hey, it is a festival, everyone is here for fun, right? A few hours later everything wasn't fun. It wasn't fun at all. And that's where it all started to slip away from me. The next 24 hours is difficult for me to remember. Just lots of crazy images and feelings of despair and fear. I think i sat under a tree for about five hours with my eyes tightly shut and my fingers in my ears, the last remaining tendril of sanity trying to hold fast against a torrent of psychosis.

I truly lost it for about five weeks after that.

During that time I should have been institutionalised and treated for drug induced psychosis. Thankfully (somehow) i managed to get through it but the fear and the uncontrollable crying would sporadically come back in waves. Up to about four years after the incident i'd still get random paranoia attacks. They would take a huge amount of mental energy to keep at bay.

The main thing i learnt from this was that the brain is unbelievably good at tricking you. No matter how crazy things seem to get, it can still convince you anything is happening and is actually real. It just so happened to manifest itself as extreme paranoia where everyone had a secret agenda aginst me - Trueman show style. Nothing anyone said to me would make me see sense. I was 100% absolutely utterly convinced i was right and everyone else was wrong. I lost some very good friends because of it. I don't blame them, it must have freaked them out big time. to this day i'm ashamed of my stupidity.

I don't know how i managed to pull myself out of it but i did. Ever since then i've understood and appreciated just how ruthlessly powerful the mind is and how it can literally flip people on their heads. It also let me truly understand how fervently some religious people can believe god is talking to them. They do actually hear a voice, no doubt. I'm just incredibly glad my psychosis manifested itself as pure paranoia instead of god or the devil speaking to me. Had it been the latter, i'm not sure what i'd be like today.

I'm sure the things you said you've witnessed did happen, Idiotsavant, but probably not in actual reality. Please don't be offended by that. It is just how i see it because of how powerful the brain is at convincing you what you've experienced is utterly real. If your experiences have led you to being a better person, then that's really cool. I just hope you'll be able to function properly as the years roll on and these experiences aren't masking something a little more problematic.