Re: God or religion, which are atheists more unhappy with?

[Whitney]

Yrreg, dogs who pay attention to what the cats say and don't force feed them dog biscuits don't get kicked off the cat forum.

[Ihateyoumike]

Yrreg, dogs who pay attention to what the cats say and don't force feed them dog biscuits don't get kicked off the cat forum.

Owned.

[curiosityandthecat]

...Yes, Kylyssa...That was a well thought out response.

Yeah, she does that.  :drool

[Yrreg]

I'm still pretty sure the OP won't read this, so I'm not sure why I bothered.

Yes, I read you, and no I don't say that you are lying in saying that for you God is not real.

There are all kinds of non-realities, and God is a very special non-reality for atheists, one which they write so much about to deny that He does exist as the moon and your nose exist, of course in His own manner, but no less real as you and I and our nose and the moon and the sun are real.


Please don't bring in lying in our exchange of views, we are just exchanging views about atheists being unhappy with God and with believers in God.

If you don't share my observation, you just say that I get it all wrong, even though I insist that my observation is real.

No one is accusing no one of lying, not me of you and I am certain not you of me.

---------------

You give one reason why you are not happy with believers in God, because they want you to observe what they observe owing to their faith in God.

Is it really that bad, that they want you to observe what they do observe owing to their faith in God, i.e., knowledge that God really exists?

Suppose you be specific and itemize concretely what they don't tolerate you doing or not doing owing to your not accepting God as real.

Okay, so they don't vote you to government elective offices because they don't want people who don't believe as they do in God, to be occupants of government offices, isn't that totally within their political rights?

You do the same, don't vote for God believers.

Now, what other things do they insist, mind you, insist that you also observe to do or to not do as they who believe in God's really existing?

Like for examples, no stealing, no murdering, no making a racket at night in the neighborhood when people are trying to get some sleep for tomorrow?



Yrreg

[Dretlin]

God or religion, which are atheists more unhappy with?

I am apathetic.

[Ihateyoumike]

You give one reason why you are not happy with believers in God,

Right now... You. Is that a good enough reason?

[Kylyssa]

Please don't bring in lying in our exchange of views, we are just exchanging views about atheists being unhappy with God and with believers in God.

I note that you persist in saying atheists have a problem with God, even though we keep telling you that we don't think God is real.  So, explain to me your big beef with Zeus and unicorns, why you are unhappy with them.

You give one reason why you are not happy with believers in God, because they want you to observe what they observe owing to their faith in God.

Is it really that bad, that they want you to observe what they do observe owing to their faith in God, i.e., knowledge that God really exists?

When they burn books, let their children die without medical treatment, plot to murder police officers at funerals, oppress minorities, and fire us for not believing as they do - yes, it is that bad.

Have you read the Bible????
If you have, you should know why people wouldn't want those rules forced on them.  The Bible contains rules requiring a disobedient and drunk sons be stoned to death, that women who are raped and then not married to the rapist may be stoned to death, that slaves may be kept, that homosexuals should be killed, that women are lesser beings than men, that people be punished for eating seafood or wearing wool mixed with cotton, and other such crazy and/or blood-thirsty rules.  

Don't try to tell me the rules are not there.  American Christians went to Uganda to support their Christian concept of a law which would have homosexuals put to death and put anyone who does not inform on a homosexual put in prison.  That's what Christian laws can look like when fundamentalist Christians get hold of the government.

What if Muslims, knowing that their version of God really exists were to force you to follow their beliefs?  They believe they are right just as much as you.  You believe a lot of the same things, too.  Your holy books both call for homosexuals, adulterers, and certain victims of rape to be killed by stoning.  Your holy books both call for women to cover their hair.  Your holy books are both about the Abrahamic God.  Since you agree with so much you'd be comfortable having Muslim rulers force you to follow their religious rules, right?

Suppose you be specific and itemize concretely what they don't tolerate you doing or not doing owing to your not accepting God as real.

For starters, they don't tolerate admissions of being an atheist.  Even if you accidentally are found out to be an atheist, they are not OK with it.  I have been spat on and beaten for getting outed as an atheist (not by my own doing) and I have received death threats and threats of rape from Christians who disagreed with things I've written from an atheist perspective.  I have had the window in my kitchen broken in and my car vandalized by Christians after I was outed as an atheist.  One Christian woman decided to terrorize me with threatening phone calls at home and at work and said such lovely things as "I pray for you to die you" and "your husband can't protect you from the will of God."  This went on for over two months.

Basically, fundamentalist Christians do not tolerate our existence.

Okay, so they don't vote you to government elective offices because they don't want people who don't believe as they do in God, to be occupants of government offices, isn't that totally within their political rights?

They won't just not vote an atheist into office, they will not allow any office to be held by atheists, even such offices that are not elected positions such as notary.  People have to fight long legal battles because Christians don't want them to sign and stamp legal papers as witnesses.

You do the same, don't vote for God believers.

WRONG!
I have voted in all but one Presidential election since adulthood and all presidential candidates in my lifetime have been religious.  I have also voted in State and local elections during that time as well and every single available candidate for everything has always been Christian.  I vote for people based on what I think they will do in office.  I'm not bigoted against people based on their religion, I judge them on what they do instead.

Now, what other things do they insist, mind you, insist that you also observe to do or to not do as they who believe in God's really existing?

Like for examples, no stealing, no murdering, no making a racket at night in the neighborhood when people are trying to get some sleep for tomorrow?

Cute, I see what you did there, taking the most logical Biblical rules and putting them up as if blood-thirsty and/or illogical rules don't exist in the Bible.  By the way, those rules also pre-date the Bible and exist in non-Christian cultures.

Here are some examples of what I, personally, have been required, mind you, required to do or not do because of other people's belief in God.

1. Hide my parents' absence of belief to avoid beatings in school.

2.  Put up with visits from social services when I was a child due to my parents not taking me to church.

3.  Put up with proselyting while I was in the hospital due to being beaten by Christians for being an atheist.
 
4. Hide my absence of religious beliefs to keep my job in workplaces where hate speech against atheists, Muslims, non-Christians in general and Catholics was an everyday occurrence.

5.  Pay to get my kitchen window replaced and to get my car re-painted and repaired after Christians vandalized both.

6.  Worry about my safety when Christians threaten me with rape and/or death simply because I believe differently than they do.

My parents had to worry about losing their children and about keeping them safe.

If you want unvarnished truth, I am writing this thinking that you find nothing wrong with any of that, that it's OK to beat someone for not believing, it's OK to threaten them or vandalize their property, it's OK to harass them and threaten their children - as long as they are non-believers.  I have lost count how many times a Christian has told me that my suffering was well-deserved or a sign from God that I need to straighten up.  

Would you be just peachy keen if you were required to hide your belief to stay safe, keep a job, keep your children safe?

As far as laws go -

1.  I can't get married to someone I love if that person happens to be the same sex as I am.
2.  I can't buy or sell sex toys in several states in the country.
3.  I can't legally have oral sex, even with a member of the opposite sex, even if we were married, in several states, including my own.
3.  I can't testify in court or hold public office in seven states.
4.  I can't go shopping on Sunday in certain areas of the country.

But it goes deeper.  Christians are trying to make many, many more laws.  How far with those laws would you go?  Would you make it a law that sons who are disobedient and drunkards be stoned to death?  Would you have women and girls stoned to death for losing their virginity?  Would you keep slaves?  Would you kill suspected witches?  Would you have homosexuals executed?  Would you kill non-believers?  If you wouldn't, can you absolutely, totally guarantee that other Christians wouldn't?  They have in other countries, so why not here?  

Can you guarantee the behavior of other Christians?  In other countries, Christians are performing sometimes deadly exorcisms and killing children they claim are witches.  In other countries Christians are killing homosexuals.  In other countries Christians are "correctively" raping lesbians.  They are finding justifications for all of it in the Bible.  How can you guarantee it won't go that far in America?

[Whitney]

Kylyssa, I don't think this one is worth your blood pressure going up.

[Kylyssa]

It's probably not.

[plinkoblinko]

@Kylyssa

It sounds like you've had too many bad experiences with the wrong people.

I'm Christian, and I know a lot of people who do not act that way. At all...
Mind you there are the annoying ones...Who just can't believe that you don't believe in GOD!!!
But if you ask me they need to learn some respect and grow up.

Have you read the Bible????

The Bible was written thousands of years ago, people had a different mind set back then. While time keeps moving, culture keeps changing, we keep learning. "Stoning" shouldn't even be considered (If you were simply making a point though, I understand)
Rules are there, I agree with you. But these rules are meant to keep you on track of simply being a good human being and strengthen your belief.

But it goes deeper. Christians are trying to make many, many more laws.

Where are these laws you are talking about?

In other countries, Christians are performing sometimes deadly exorcisms and killing children they claim are witches. In other countries Christians are killing homosexuals. In other countries Christians are "correctively" raping lesbians. They are finding justifications for all of it in the Bible. How can you guarantee it won't go that far in America?

Where are you finding this information, I'm honestly just curious...

[Whitney]

It sounds like you've had too many bad experiences with the wrong people.

Those wrong people often travel in groups and for some atheists can make their lives a living hell.  Those same wrong people think they are doing god's work too...just look at Westboro Baptist Church at least they don't actually physically harm anyone.  I know people who are closeted atheists because in their area speaking openly about differences in opinion over religion is practically a death sentence.

Yes, there are a lot of good Christians, but they are good despite what is written in their holy book not because of it.

[plinkoblinko]

Those wrong people often travel in groups and for some atheists can make their lives a living hell. Those same wrong people think they are doing god's work too...just look at Westboro Baptist Church at least they don't actually physically harm anyone. I know people who are closeted atheists because in their area speaking openly about differences in opinion over religion is practically a death sentence.

Life's a trip, those people are nuts, and my suggestion would be get the hell out of there.
Kind of interesting though how you point out people suffering because of what they believe....I think that pretty much happens to everyone. Not just atheists.

Yes, there are a lot of good Christians, but they are good despite what is written in their holy book not because of it.

And the good always outweighs the bad. And I agree most people are genuinely good, but their holy book can strengthen that is all I'm saying.

[Kylyssa]

Have you read the Bible????

The Bible was written thousands of years ago, people had a different mind set back then. While time keeps moving, culture keeps changing, we keep learning. "Stoning" shouldn't even be considered (If you were simply making a point though, I understand)

If people are trying to enforce other Old Testament laws how can we be sure they won't enforce others?  The people that take the Bible literally (six day creation, etc.) believe the Bible is the word of God, not, as you mention, a book written by people in a different time that followed a different morality.

Rules are there, I agree with you. But these rules are meant to keep you on track of simply being a good human being and strengthen your belief.

Which is just fine so long as your rules don't infringe on other people's rights and safety (i.e. letting your child die without medical treatment, harming others) and you don't make your rules into laws and force everyone to follow them.

But it goes deeper. Christians are trying to make many, many more laws.

Where are these laws you are talking about?

Anti-blasphemy laws, anti-homosexuality laws.  And seriously, you haven't noticed the religious fundamentalists trying to get evolution and science-based sex ed out of schools?  Haven't you seen the book burnings?  

In other countries, Christians are performing sometimes deadly exorcisms and killing children they claim are witches. In other countries Christians are killing homosexuals. In other countries Christians are "correctively" raping lesbians. They are finding justifications for all of it in the Bible. How can you guarantee it won't go that far in America?

Where are you finding this information, I'm honestly just curious...

It's called the news.  Go to .  Type in the following combinations of keywords each set separately and then read the results -
"evangelical exorcisms children"
"child witches"
"Uganda homosexuals"
"South Africa corrective rape"

I can already hear the, "Yes, but not all Christians support that stuff" already.  No, not all Christians do, most Christians don't.  But enough do that those things are happening and you had zero idea that they were.  I can also almost hear the "but they are not REAL Christians" coming next.  How would you guarantee that only REAL Christians would be listened to when it comes to lawmaking based on the Bible?  

Most Christians are great people but we can't trust that all Christians are great people.  Most Muslims are great people, too, and I'm sure you how Muslim theocracies are working out.

In America, we've tried to prevent a theocracy by not giving any single religion official control over government.

[Kylyssa]

Life's a trip, those people are nuts, and my suggestion would be get the hell out of there.

So your answer is leave America, how original.  No thanks, I'd rather speak up and try to change it.

Kind of interesting though how you point out people suffering because of what they believe....I think that pretty much happens to everyone. Not just atheists.

So that makes it fine.  It's OK if Christians make people suffer because other people make Christians suffer?  Seriously?  What kind of morality is that?

[Kylyssa]

@Kylyssa

It sounds like you've had too many bad experiences with the wrong people.

Yes, because there are too many "wrong people" and they are tolerated by many and supported by others.

I'm Christian, and I know a lot of people who do not act that way. At all...

You know, me too.  Most Christians are great people.  But the existence of Christians that are great people doesn't negate the existence of Christians that are not - and vice-versa.  Almost all of the people I know are Christians and most of them are nice.  But it doesn't make it just fine when a few of the Christians I know refuse to serve Muslims or to set up flowers in a Jewish temple or Catholic church (did you know - fundies don't think Catholics are Christians?!?) or when they suggest that atheists should get rounded up into internment camps.

You see, by talking about this dirty underbelly, good Christians like yourself can see what's going on and maybe speak up and say, "hey, cut it out, that's not nice" to the other Christians doing this crap in your religion's name.  My Christian friends are horrified when they learn of this stuff going on.  And they say so and spread the word.