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[Pasta Chick]

This is the one that bothers me. My family physician is also a reserve police officer for a small city not far from me. He was also on the board of the local hospital.
Back in the early 2000's they had a massive influx of Mexicans to town. In a very short period the local police force went from 5 officers/2 cars, to 10 cars/can't remember the exact number of officers. He claims it was a direct result of the higher crime rate in the Mexican area.
The hospital went under around the time of the economy taking a dump in the late 2000's. According to him, the biggest factor in the closing was the increase in unpaid care from the immigrants.
One more quicky. I have a friend who immigrated from Bosnia who owns a trucking company. He has owned the business fire several years but claims he hasn't paid a dime in taxes due to a loophole. I can't remember the exact details but something to do with having a grace period of a couple years to help immigrants get on their feet. All he has to do is change the name of the company when the period is up, and recycle.
Good for him, totally legal. He'd fit in nicely here, big time liberal atheist.

Stories like these have been proven to be... inaccurate is the polite word for it, but you wouldn't happen to have any of them facts to support them would you?

I also find them highly suspect. In this case - having owned my own business - you can't just change your business name every couple of years and maintain clients. Your name is your brand. It's how people find you. The only way this would realistically work is if that business held a strong monopoly over a pretty significant area.

And if they are true - yes, some people are shits who cheat the system. As mentioned, Trump does it and is quite proud of it, which makes voting for him because you disapprove of others doing it pretty hypocritical and also racist since we're talking exclusively about immigrants doing it. In any case those loopholes should be addressed, but isolated anecdotes are not representative of an entire system.

The only proof anyone ever has of this shit is "well I knew this guy once who..." And believe me, I've investigated this shit. The popular one up here is that you can work under $15k a year and file in such a way that the govt gives you $15k back. I was in that bracket for several years but never found any way to actually make that happen despite all the tails.

[Steeler]

This is the one that bothers me. My family physician is also a reserve police officer for a small city not far from me. He was also on the board of the local hospital.
Back in the early 2000's they had a massive influx of Mexicans to town. In a very short period the local police force went from 5 officers/2 cars, to 10 cars/can't remember the exact number of officers. He claims it was a direct result of the higher crime rate in the Mexican area.
The hospital went under around the time of the economy taking a dump in the late 2000's. According to him, the biggest factor in the closing was the increase in unpaid care from the immigrants.
One more quicky. I have a friend who immigrated from Bosnia who owns a trucking company. He has owned the business fire several years but claims he hasn't paid a dime in taxes due to a loophole. I can't remember the exact details but something to do with having a grace period of a couple years to help immigrants get on their feet. All he has to do is change the name of the company when the period is up, and recycle.
Good for him, totally legal. He'd fit in nicely here, big time liberal atheist.

Stories like these have been proven to be... inaccurate is the polite word for it, but you wouldn't happen to have any of them facts to support them would you?

I also find them highly suspect. In this case - having owned my own business - you can't just change your business name every couple of years and maintain clients. Your name is your brand. It's how people find you. The only way this would realistically work is if that business held a strong monopoly over a pretty significant area.

And if they are true - yes, some people are shits who cheat the system. As mentioned, Trump does it and is quite proud of it, which makes voting for him because you disapprove of others doing it pretty hypocritical and also racist since we're talking exclusively about immigrants doing it. In any case those loopholes should be addressed, but isolated anecdotes are not representative of an entire system.

The only proof anyone ever has of this shit is "well I knew this guy once who..." And believe me, I've investigated this shit. The popular one up here is that you can work under $15k a year and file in such a way that the govt gives you $15k back. I was in that bracket for several years but never found any way to actually make that happen despite all the tails.

Your situation is different than his. He drives a tractor trailer hauling a container with parts for GE. He has a dedicated route, 1 customer. They don't give 2 shits what the name of his company is. Now is he lying to me? Anything is possible, but he has zero reason to.
As far as the others, they are simply personal experiences, take them as you will. I personally saw the increased police force, so the docs story aligns with what I observed. I have no reason to doubt it.
You think I'm lying? You're free to do so, but that's not my thing.

[Steeler]

As painful as it must be, Hillary and Obama are being very classy about loss and transition of power.

It's sad that their supporters aren't. Especially from a party that peaches tolerance.

[Davin]

This is the one that bothers me. My family physician is also a reserve police officer for a small city not far from me. He was also on the board of the local hospital.
Back in the early 2000's they had a massive influx of Mexicans to town. In a very short period the local police force went from 5 officers/2 cars, to 10 cars/can't remember the exact number of officers. He claims it was a direct result of the higher crime rate in the Mexican area.
The hospital went under around the time of the economy taking a dump in the late 2000's. According to him, the biggest factor in the closing was the increase in unpaid care from the immigrants.
One more quicky. I have a friend who immigrated from Bosnia who owns a trucking company. He has owned the business fire several years but claims he hasn't paid a dime in taxes due to a loophole. I can't remember the exact details but something to do with having a grace period of a couple years to help immigrants get on their feet. All he has to do is change the name of the company when the period is up, and recycle.
Good for him, totally legal. He'd fit in nicely here, big time liberal atheist.

Stories like these have been proven to be... inaccurate is the polite word for it, but you wouldn't happen to have any of them facts to support them would you?

I also find them highly suspect. In this case - having owned my own business - you can't just change your business name every couple of years and maintain clients. Your name is your brand. It's how people find you. The only way this would realistically work is if that business held a strong monopoly over a pretty significant area.

And if they are true - yes, some people are shits who cheat the system. As mentioned, Trump does it and is quite proud of it, which makes voting for him because you disapprove of others doing it pretty hypocritical and also racist since we're talking exclusively about immigrants doing it. In any case those loopholes should be addressed, but isolated anecdotes are not representative of an entire system.

The only proof anyone ever has of this shit is "well I knew this guy once who..." And believe me, I've investigated this shit. The popular one up here is that you can work under $15k a year and file in such a way that the govt gives you $15k back. I was in that bracket for several years but never found any way to actually make that happen despite all the tails.

Your situation is different than his. He drives a tractor trailer hauling a container with parts for GE. He has a dedicated route, 1 customer. They don't give 2 shits what the name of his company is. Now is he lying to me? Anything is possible, but he has zero reason to.
As far as the others, they are simply personal experiences, take them as you will. I personally saw the increased police force, so the docs story aligns with what I observed. I have no reason to doubt it.
You think I'm lying? You're free to do so, but that's not my thing.

You don't have to be lying to be misrepresenting reality. You could simply be wrong and taking a story that seems to make sense without looking to make sure it's true. Perfectly normal thing, and doesn't mean that you're lying. It just means that you're not a reliable source who relies on unreliable sources.

[Steeler]

I'm still trying to figure out why everyone here is all torn up about Trumps past insensitivities, or down right racism if you like. But no problem with Hillary's illegal activities.
I guess that's just small stuff. Nothing to see there huh?

Or how about the real issues, like policy? Is it all hate, policy be damned?




Denial incoming..........

[Steeler]

That's silly Davin. I'm simply sharing what I was told by a couple of people I trust. I have no reason or time to contact hospital administration and interrogate them about why they closed. Sorry I brought it up now, I should have known it would be perceived as a bs  story. no room for personal experiences here I suppose, unless it fits the agenda.

[Davin]

I'm still trying to figure out why everyone here is all torn up about Trumps past insensitivities, or down right racism if you like. But no problem with Hillary's illegal activities.
I guess that's just small stuff. Nothing to see there huh?

Or how about the real issues, like policy? Is it all hate, policy be damned?




Denial incoming..........

Sure let's talk about the policies, what are Trump's actual policies? Because as much as I have seen, there isn't much there at all.

Trump thinks that global warming is a hoax, and will open up more coal and green house emitting industries, while taking away clean air regulations. Now in a time where we're already pretty fucked in 50 years time no matter what we do, we could limit the damage done by fixing things now. But instead of that, Trump wants to make things even worse and make it happen sooner. That's stupid policy.

Building a wall. Stupid and expensive. Like Mexicans don't have shovel, ladder, and rope technology. A very stupid policy.

Trump wants to deport all undocumented workers. A very expensive process, that will cost way more than undocumented immigrants are currently costing tax payers. I understand that people want to force people to follow the law, but let's be fiscally responsible about it instead of wasting so much money on something that isn't that big of a problem.

Banning muslims... This is where his racism plays a part in his policies. Banning all the people of a religion is not good, it's discrimination and religious persecution based on what? We didn't do shit to the Christian religion no matter how many Christian terrorists there were. And I don't think we should have. Just like we shouldn't now.

Defeating ISIS... I suppose we'll just have to trust that he has something here and it doesn't end up bullshit like every other time he said, "I have something here, folks. Trust me." Then he comes out and offers to pay someone to bring evidence that Obama's birth certificate was faked.

Nuclear weapons, Trump thinks that if we have them, then we should use them. Well, I hope you have a good jacket because a nuclear winter will last a while.

Minimum wage... well this takes math and statistics, and based on my prior dealings with you, it's probably better for you to just let this one go.

Taxes. Trump is going to lower taxes for the wealthy, and raise it for you and the middle income families. An economy thrives with money flows, but when the wealthy get more money, then tend to save it instead of spend it and when they do spend it, it mostly gets spent in a smaller pool. This means that the more money that wealthy people have, the more stale it becomes. Now I understand that the wealthy don't want to pay taxes, and I too would be against the 90% that it was almost a century ago, but what is good for the economy is to let more people spend more money, than to let a few people horde most of the money. So when a country takes more money from the middle class, they spend less money, and the economy gets worse. This is the policy that Trump wants to enact, and it's stupid.

Guns. I know this is a subject that many people lose their ability think rationally about it. Gun laws are too lax right now. If you make it harder for criminals to get guns, it makes guns more expensive on the black market, that limits the amount of guns that a criminals can afford. But if you continue to let criminals buy guns at normal prices from legal sources, then more criminals will have more guns. I know we will never bring that down to zero, but I'd prefer moving the number down instead of what Trump wants to do and make it even easier for criminals to get low cost access to guns which will make the number go up.

National debt. He wants to get rid of the national debt in eight years. I commend him for wanting it, but with the other things he's proposing, I don't see how reducing the amount of money the government makes and increasing the amount of government spending is going to that. I mean, I know that's math, but I think it's simple enough to understand.

Abortion and women's rights in general. Tough subject, I'll talk about it if you want.

Torture and other breaking of international laws. Trump wants to break the laws. That crooked criminal.

A bunch more, but since you never brought a list, I'll just let that sit there. I'll talk about other ones if you want.

[Davin]

That's silly Davin. I'm simply sharing what I was told by a couple of people I trust. I have no reason or time to contact hospital administration and interrogate them about why they closed. Sorry I brought it up now, I should have known it would be perceived as a bs  story. no room for personal experiences here I suppose, unless it fits the agenda.

That's fine that you want to share the story, good for you. I don't perceive it as BS, I perceive it as unreliable. I can see that basing your beliefs on reality is not as important to you as it is to me, and while that's fine, it would be better for you and the rest of us, if you would base your beliefs on reality rather than baseless hearsay.

[Steeler]

Ok. You're impossible. By your logic, you could make a case that the whole world is one big conspiracy. Or that nobody is trustworthy. What if I did find the CEO of that hospital, is he lying too? Any way to prove most of what we hear everyday?

In the doc story, he was a police officer and BOD at the hospital, no agenda, we were just small talking. Add that to personally witnessing the increase in immigrants and the number of police cars parked at the station, it adds up to me. If that's foolish on my part, then I'm foolish.

As far as the business owner. If he lied to me, which I doubt, then it is what it is. If not, it's perfectly legal. Would you pay taxes if you didn't have to? Not this guy.

[Steeler]

I won't quote your political opinion post, too long. I'm not going to argue with that. It's mostly your opinion and that's fine. Some of it I agree with you on.

[Arturo]

Hear say has nothing to do with lying. It's more like playing a game of telephone with the real world and believing it.

[Steeler]

Hear say has nothing to do with lying. It's more like playing a game of telephone with the real world and believing it.

Yes I understand hearsay. Me telling you guys something I was told would qualify I suppose. But me hearing it directly from the horses mouth world not.
Listen I didn't intend to make this a big debate, I was just sharing a story that didn't really require any further discussion, but I guess I understand. Anything that goes against the grain here will be met with max resistance. It goes the other way on a more right leaning forum, I get it.

[Mr. B]

If you don't see how Trump is racist, you're either filtering out information you don't want to see with stunning ability, or you are racist. And again, I'm not saying anyone is the "string n*****s up in a tree" sort of racist, but that's not the only brand of racism in the world and as America just proved, the subtle, systemic type is absolutely rampant.

Trump's Long History of Racism

And remember, while the consequences of any "ism" are harmful, individual statements may seem benign or even positive. "Oh, you're Asian? You must be so good at math!" IS an extremely racist statement. Which makes all of Trumps carrying on about how much he likes and hires Jews because they're so great with money really fucking gross.

Death by a 1,000 micro-aggressions?

How about maybe our liberals stop grooming all of our non white, non male kids to be so fucking sensitive and instead teach them to not take everything everyone says so personally. I was a sensitive kid. I came home from school many times depressed. I hid from the older kids at the bus stop because they always made fun of me. They were just joking around and thought it was funny.

The advice I received was to ignore them or stand my ground. Tease them right back if I could. I learned how to do both well.  As a result, no matter where I am, I am in my safe space.

[Sandra Craft]

I'm still trying to figure out why everyone here is all torn up about Trumps past insensitivities, or down right racism if you like. But no problem with Hillary's illegal activities.
I guess that's just small stuff. Nothing to see there huh?

Or how about the real issues, like policy? Is it all hate, policy be damned?




Denial incoming..........

The problem with the criminal activities claims is that as much as she's been investigated, and usually by her bitterest enemies who have no desire to go easy on her, she's been exonerated.  I'm no fan of Clinton's, but if you're hearing these "she's a criminal" claims without an automatic anti-Clinton bias, they sound no end of dodgy. 

And the problem with Trump goes well beyond his being "insensitive".  We do have a history of actual criminal activity on his part, particularly fraud, and there's that child-rape case coming up.  And the fact that he believes not paying taxes in 20 years is a point in his favor, rather than a screwing over of the middle and lower classes who pick up the slack in taxes left by the extremely wealthy.

As far as policies go, yes, there are some things I had problems with Clinton about, but I usually had the same problems (and often to a greater degree) with Trump.  On the other hand, I preferred Clinton's acknowledgement of climate change and ideas about tackling it to Trump's "it's a Chinese hoax", I approved of Clinton's keeping the ACA and funding PP to Trump's vow to eliminate both things that are often the only available health care for the poor, I certainly approved Clinton's pro-LGBT stance to Trump's anti-LGBT stance.  As someone who lives in CA and knows just how much we depend on undocumented workers, I was behind her promise to sort that out with a quicker, cheaper pathway to citizenship, and not breaking up immigrant families, to Trump's vow to deport 11 million people, to say nothing of his lunatic fantasy about building a wall.   

And as much as Clinton's been called a war-mongerer, I vastly preferred to have her hold the nuclear codes than see them in the hands of someone who said "I love war", and "we have nukes, why not use them?". 

In short, every argument I've heard against Clinton has sounded to me like "don't vote for that bad person -- vote for this worse one!"

[Magdalena]

Get some sleep Mags. I'll leave you alone now.
WAIT. You're 3 hours behind me, it's early still!!
J/k nite nite