A question for theists

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Which laws were claimed to be written by YHWH's own hand?

(Hint: think "Charlton Heston.")

[technolud]

..and you claim to have read, understand and interpret the bible?

When I lived in Arkansas my best friend was a Methodist Minister.  He was a "true beleiver" in the best sense.  Yet, he used to play a game, what whever quote you used to make a point from the bible, he could quote a contridictory one.  The bible says what ever you wish it to.  Thats why so many people can find the "truth" it.  Its there.  No matter what you believe.

[Stevil]

Or, we could simply ditch the concept/belief of morality. Live our own lives rather than worry about how others live their lives.
Focus on a functional society and create rules (laws) to make us safe from ourselves, e.g. laws against murder, rape, theft etc.
Don't create laws against things that don't make society unsafe e.g. working on national holidays, prostitution, gay sex, polygamy, abortion.
Don't worry about the morality of our own actions, e.g. is it moral to eat meat? is it moral to manipulate DNA.

If these things present dangers on society then create laws, but if your only argument is whether it is moral or not then who cares?

I agree in principle, though protection against danger should include curbing economic exploitation and preventing the perpetuation of social inequalities.

Absolutely,

Poor people need to survive, when they become desperate they steal and even kill.
When their numbers are great, they need to change society in order to survive, riots and revolution.

A society that is to survive and thrive needs to cater for social inequalities.

[Stevil]

Let's say we are talking about the Christian god, let's call him YHWH (that's what the bible calls him)
Which laws were claimed to be written by YHWH's own hand?

...and you claim to have read, understand and interpret the bible?

Of reading your posts I feel your epistemology is based on claims, these don't need to be verified by evidence so if you are consistent then you will assert what I claim as truth.

I have not read the bible.
I have read the first 5-10 pages, I have also read a few pages of the New Testament.
Enough to get the gist.
I don't interpret.
I read the word as written.
If Jesus tells a person not to worry about food, water or clothing then that is exactly what Jesus is saying.
Poor advice, yes. People whom follow this advice will die young, their family will be in danger of suffering the same fate.
It goes on to state that the god will provide the necessities for those whom prioritise on seeking the kingdom of god.
That is what the bible states, it requires no interpretation to read it and to understand what is being said.
In reality we know that baskets of food, bottles of water and parcels of clothes do not magically appear in front of a believer whom prioritises on seeking the kingdom of god. If the bible were true and applies to our reality, then this god is failing to deliver on this promise. No interpretation required.

I claim, that I can read the bible, without interpretation, to understand the message as it has been written, I claim to have the ability to understand that the message does not fit reality and that the advice given is not conducive to life. I claim to therefore have knowledge that the Jesus described by the bible cannot be an all knowing perfect god and hence is not an all knowing perfect god.
I claim that if AD reads the bible, without first asserting Jesus is god, Jesus is perfect and Jesus is wise. AD will also have the ability to read the words as written, will have the ability to see how poor the advice is, and will also see that Jesus cannot possibly be god.

The problem isn't the bible, the problem is AD's unwillingness to read it as written, to read it without the assertions. AD will not risk his eternal future for the sake of open mindedness, for the sake of truth. Is a faithful person a person whom closes their mind off to alternatives in order to be pure and untempted, or is a faithful person a person whom is unafraid of testing their own faith, of challenging their own beliefs, their own assertions?

[Stevil]

Which laws were claimed to be written by YHWH's own hand?

(Hint: think "Charlton Heston.")

The 10 commandments, written with nobody watching other than child rape protagonist Moses.
Written using rudimentary technology, such as that used by humans at the time.

Where are these tablets? Are they in a museum somewhere?

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me
If there are either no gods or only one god then it is impossible to have other gods before "me".
How does this serve humanity?

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.
No models of planets, starts, meteors, no models of moles, worms, ground hogs, no models of fish, whales. No serving animals? No bowing?
How does this serve humanity?

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
What's his name? YHWH, Omega, Jesus, Allah, Vishnu?????
How does this serve humanity?

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Is this Saturday or Sunday? Was the universe created in 6 days or billions of years? Does the sabbath represent 1 earth day or a billion years?
How does this serve humanity?

Four wasted commandments so far.

5. Honour thy father and thy mother
Pfft, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them", Some people don't know both parents, some people are raped and mistreated by their parents, some people are sold off by their parents...
How does this serve humanity?

6. Thou shalt not kill/murder
We need to eat, we kill vegetables and animals so we can survive.
We need to protect ourselves, we sometimes are forced to kill to survive.
Compassion sometimes enables us to kill animals or people whom are suffering.
Very ambiguous.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery
It seems natural thoughts of lust are defined as adultery. Sex with a non virgin woman is considered adultery, even if the woman's sexual encounter was due to a rape.
The vast majority of animals are not monogamous, lives change, situations change, people die, people turn out to be wife beaters, child rapers.
This is a very shortsighted, black and white rule.

8. Thou shalt not steal
Even if a person is dying of starvation, Oh right, god will provide, yeah right.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
Or any other person right? even against someone whom isn't your neighbour.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Again why is this restricted to neighbour?
Why not covet his maservant or maidservant? They are people too, can one not fall in love with and marry a manservant, or maidservant?
What is wrong with competition, if the maservant or maidservant are doing a great job, why cannot one offer them money to be your own maservant or maidservant?

Poor advice all around.
Maybe 9 is OK, but needs to be extended to all people, not just neighbors.

[Gawen]

Excellent post stevil!!

[Gawen]

Sort of fixed it for you.

The problem isn't the bible, the problem is Christians unwillingness to read it as written, to read it without the assertions.  A Christian will not risk his eternal future for the sake of open mindedness, because they are afraid.

Is a faithful person a person whom closes their mind off to alternatives in order to be pure and untempted, or is a faithful person a person whom is unafraid of testing their own faith, of challenging their own beliefs, their own assertions?

An excellent question. The answer, of course, depends upon whom or what the person is being faithful to. Themselves? Fear and superstition? Invisible Gods?

[Gawen]

Here we go again about the 10 vs the other 603 commandments; of which the two added together make 613 commandments given BY God. A question then, why did God write only the first 10 C's and nothing else in the Bible? Of course, one would need a freight train to carry ALL of the commandments as they would have been written on stone. Gotta keep that papyrus away from that burning bush!!

At any rate, Christians love to separate the first ten because they are allegedly written by God himself. How they love to revere those first 10 commandments, lovingly written on stone by the finger of God and given to ancient Hebrews. Never mind that Jesus never wrote anything at all...with his finger or a stylus.

Christians have borrowed from the Jews - Peshat - one of four classical methods of Jewish biblical exegesis. I would suspect this is how Bruce and AD interpret their Bibles.
A summary of Peshat:
1) The simple, literal meaning of the text.
2) The hinted and unstated truths that, they say, logically and necessarily follow from a plain meaning but are not explicitly mentioned in the text.
3) The allegoric (parable like) understanding which reveals certain truths to those who are diligent to seek and ask the Spirit of Wisdom (Proverbs: 8 ), and/or to conceal truths (Matthew 13:10-11).  
4) The hidden truths by God which are only understood by direct revelation from the Holy Spirit. They are beyond the powers of human intellect or reason, however, they are discovered to be absolutely logical and in complete agreement with Scripture.

What's with all this borrowing? Even so, I can understand why Christians only "borrow" from Scripture what they "like". Seems plain to me that they "like" the first 10 C's because they were written by the hand of God. What they cannot seem to understand is that they were written for ancient Hebrews!
Never mind there were 613 of them, only the first ten count.
Never mind Jesus said he wasn't doing away with God's commandments, only the first ten count.
Never mind God himself said the commandments were binding forever to his chosen people, only the first ten count.

Let's just listen to megalomaniac Paul.

If you cannot follow Mosaic Law, you are not one of Gods chosen.
If you cannot follow the Sermon on the Mount, stevil (and myself) have shown you why you cannot be even one of Jesus' chosen.

[xSilverPhinx]

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.
No models of planets, starts, meteors, no models of moles, worms, ground hogs, no models of fish, whales. No serving animals? No bowing?
How does this serve humanity?

I don't really know, but I think this actually refers to graven idols and not astronomical bodies or explanatory models, such as Jesus on a cross, and religious items. It's one of the beefs Protestants had with Catholics...

[technolud]

Now that Stevil and Gawen have proven beyond in irrefutable doubt (at least to a bunch of Atheists) that the bible can't possibly be true, can anyone explain to me why so many people believe so deeply in it, or other religions.  This is the question which confounds me, not "what" they believe, but that they believe at all.  Christianity, Islam, Buddism, etc. etc., its all the same to me.

As a group believers aren't stupid or idiots.  (I mean, some might be but most aren't).

Is it a question of tribe mentality?  Wanting to belong to the group?

Is it a question of conditioning?  Hear the same thing over and over and it becomes the Truth?

Is it a mental health pain avoidance thing?

Fear driven? 

Somebody please explain.

[Stevil]

You might want to check out this thread
Why God?
Be great if you could post any other theories on it.

[xSilverPhinx]

Now that Stevil and Gawen have proven beyond in irrefutable doubt (at least to a bunch of Atheists) that the bible can't possibly be true, can anyone explain to me why so many people believe so deeply in it, or other religions.  This is the question which confounds me, not "what" they believe, but that they believe at all.  Christianity, Islam, Buddism, etc. etc., its all the same to me.

As a group believers aren't stupid or idiots.  (I mean, some might be but most aren't).

Is it a question of tribe mentality?  Wanting to belong to the group?

Is it a question of conditioning?  Hear the same thing over and over and it becomes the Truth?

Is it a mental health pain avoidance thing?

Fear driven? 

Somebody please explain.

That's a good comic

I also find it fascinating why some otherwise intelligent people believe in their religions. One good vid on the evolutionary tendency, in which the presenter explains how religion hijacks normal human mental processes, can be found on YouTube, if you're interested. In my uneducated opinion, this is more relevant than the god virus idea.

Why We Believe in Gods

[technolud]

This is some thread.  Going to take a little bit to digest the whole thing.

 

You might want to check out this thread
Why God?
Be great if you could post any other theories on it.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Here we go again about the 10 vs the other 603 commandments; of which the two added together make 613 commandments given BY God. A question then, why did God write only the first 10 C's and nothing else in the Bible? Of course, one would need a freight train to carry ALL of the commandments as they would have been written on stone. Gotta keep that papyrus away from that burning bush!!

From my perspective, it doesn't matter how many God actually wrote. That was all part of the first covenant, which was fulfilled and made obsolete by the new covenant. None of them apply to me.

At any rate, Christians love to separate the first ten because they are allegedly written by God himself. How they love to revere those first 10 commandments, lovingly written on stone by the finger of God and given to ancient Hebrews. Never mind that Jesus never wrote anything at all...with his finger or a stylus.

Actually, Jesus wrote something on the ground in John 8.  We just don't know what it was.  My suspicion is that he was writing the 10 Commandments, to show the Jews who were watching that they had violated at least one of them.

Christians have borrowed from the Jews - Peshat - one of four classical methods of Jewish biblical exegesis. I would suspect this is how Bruce and AD interpret their Bibles.
A summary of Peshat:
1) The simple, literal meaning of the text.
2) The hinted and unstated truths that, they say, logically and necessarily follow from a plain meaning but are not explicitly mentioned in the text.
3) The allegoric (parable like) understanding which reveals certain truths to those who are diligent to seek and ask the Spirit of Wisdom (Proverbs: 8 ), and/or to conceal truths (Matthew 13:10-11).  
4) The hidden truths by God which are only understood by direct revelation from the Holy Spirit. They are beyond the powers of human intellect or reason, however, they are discovered to be absolutely logical and in complete agreement with Scripture.

Can't speak for AD. I have not adopted this system.  I am aware of it, however.

What's with all this borrowing? Even so, I can understand why Christians only "borrow" from Scripture what they "like". Seems plain to me that they "like" the first 10 C's because they were written by the hand of God. What they cannot seem to understand is that they were written for ancient Hebrews!
Never mind there were 613 of them, only the first ten count.
Never mind Jesus said he wasn't doing away with God's commandments, only the first ten count.
Never mind God himself said the commandments were binding forever to his chosen people, only the first ten count.

Jesus fulfilled the torah and the prophets, so they passed away.  A new covenant supersedes an older covenant. It's Contracts 101.  They don't apply anymore. 

[fester30]

Here we go again about the 10 vs the other 603 commandments; of which the two added together make 613 commandments given BY God. A question then, why did God write only the first 10 C's and nothing else in the Bible? Of course, one would need a freight train to carry ALL of the commandments as they would have been written on stone. Gotta keep that papyrus away from that burning bush!!

From my perspective, it doesn't matter how many God actually wrote. That was all part of the first covenant, which was fulfilled and made obsolete by the new covenant. None of them apply to me.

At any rate, Christians love to separate the first ten because they are allegedly written by God himself. How they love to revere those first 10 commandments, lovingly written on stone by the finger of God and given to ancient Hebrews. Never mind that Jesus never wrote anything at all...with his finger or a stylus.

Actually, Jesus wrote something on the ground in John 8.  We just don't know what it was.  My suspicion is that he was writing the 10 Commandments, to show the Jews who were watching that they had violated at least one of them.

Christians have borrowed from the Jews - Peshat - one of four classical methods of Jewish biblical exegesis. I would suspect this is how Bruce and AD interpret their Bibles.
A summary of Peshat:
1) The simple, literal meaning of the text.
2) The hinted and unstated truths that, they say, logically and necessarily follow from a plain meaning but are not explicitly mentioned in the text.
3) The allegoric (parable like) understanding which reveals certain truths to those who are diligent to seek and ask the Spirit of Wisdom (Proverbs: 8 ), and/or to conceal truths (Matthew 13:10-11).  
4) The hidden truths by God which are only understood by direct revelation from the Holy Spirit. They are beyond the powers of human intellect or reason, however, they are discovered to be absolutely logical and in complete agreement with Scripture.

Can't speak for AD. I have not adopted this system.  I am aware of it, however.

What's with all this borrowing? Even so, I can understand why Christians only "borrow" from Scripture what they "like". Seems plain to me that they "like" the first 10 C's because they were written by the hand of God. What they cannot seem to understand is that they were written for ancient Hebrews!
Never mind there were 613 of them, only the first ten count.
Never mind Jesus said he wasn't doing away with God's commandments, only the first ten count.
Never mind God himself said the commandments were binding forever to his chosen people, only the first ten count.

Jesus fulfilled the torah and the prophets, so they passed away.  A new covenant supersedes an older covenant. It's Contracts 101.  They don't apply anymore. 

Sure, one apparently doesn't get to heaven by works alone.  However, faith without works is dead according to John chapter 2. 

Okay, so basically you should do your very best to not sin.  However, since nobody is perfect and sinless, you have this Jesus sacrifice that covers you.  However, the existence of the new covenant doesn't dismiss entirely the old covenant.  It just changes the sacrifice that absolves sin from a lamb every year to a one-time-good God-suicide.

As for the reason why Christians seem to cherry-pick some of the law and leave the rest of it... it's possible they are separating moral laws from ceremonial and community laws, even though the Bible makes no distinction.  A law like homosexuality is viewed by many as a moral law, while a law about wearing clothing made of multiple fibers, or about eating pork, or how to plant your crops, or how to sacrifice animals, might be community or ceremonial, which means beyond their usefulness since communities now are different than in old testament times, and since Jesus' sacrifice made ceremonial law obsolete (no longer sacrificing that lamb).

It makes little sense to me, an ex Christian, and I could understand why it would make even less sense to someone who never believed in any gods.