A question for theists

[Crow]

Oh Ecurb.  The heyday I could have with your idea that penetration is degrading....Asmo, my psych degree wants to come out and play!

Well, we are here to discuss things. Have at it.  I'm interested in it, as well.  I only see it as degrading when it relates to a male being penetrated by another male, as that seems contrary to the essence of masculinity to me. 

I will leave this here. Steve Hughes: the "straightness" of gay men, and the "gayness" of straight men. But each to there own really, personally I don't have a problem with the idea of male on male penetration, though I can understand why some might, I actually have a gay friend who finds the very thought of anal sex disgusting. But degrading, really? I don't get what's degrading about the act unless it isn't consensual, then it would be very degrading.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

But degrading, really? I don't get what's degrading about the act unless it isn't consensual, then it would be very degrading.

As I said, that's just my own particular way of seeing it - I'm not suggesting that this is any objective or universal standard.  It appears to relate to my own concept of masculinity - men being more aggressive, linear, assertive, forward-oriented. They "penetrate" the wilderness, explore, go to war.  Women are more nurturing, caring, accepting - they take people into themselves, metaphorically, so to speak.  Accepting penetration seems natural for them, but contrary to the masculine nature.

Again, this is just me - certainly not a basis for public policy or law.

[xSilverPhinx]

But degrading, really? I don't get what's degrading about the act unless it isn't consensual, then it would be very degrading.

As I said, that's just my own particular way of seeing it - I'm not suggesting that this is any objective or universal standard.  It appears to relate to my own concept of masculinity - men being more aggressive, linear, assertive, forward-oriented. They "penetrate" the wilderness, explore, go to war.  Women are more nurturing, caring, accepting - they take people into themselves, metaphorically, so to speak.  Accepting penetration seems natural for them, but contrary to the masculine nature.

Again, this is just me - certainly not a basis for public policy or law.

Heh, actually the most aggressive, linear, assertive, forward-oriented wilderness-penetrating few people I know are mostly women. Repeat that to a matriarch and see what happens

[AnimatedDirt]

My confusion with this is not whether they were children, young adults, mature adults or elderly.
My confusion is that the punishment does not fit the crime.
In NZ I can shout out obscenities at my prime minister and I would not get punished at all.
If the prime minister set two bears to maul me to death then the country would be in shock, there would be calls for the prime minister to get sent to prison.

Again...in context ( culture, time, God as Creator, Sovereign... ) are all things to be considered when interpreting the things that have gone on AND RECORDED in the bible as truth.  Nothing is hidden.  The punishment is harsh but the lesson is clear.  Sometimes a lesson needs to be established and one that every person hears.  I can't pretend to know God's mind and why it was bears and a mauling to make the lesson, but the lesson, again, is clear.  What I do know, in context, is that God is Sovereign and Justice is served.  This goes all the way back to the basics of sin and the wages thereof.  If God is Righteousness, and so sin cannot exist in His presence, then the wages of sin being death is not a choice, but a natural consequence and the reason He cannot simply just "forgive and forget" the sinner...and more so the LEGAL reason the plan of salvation works.  Much like putting one's finger in a flame will always result in burning...it's the nature of fire which cannot be changed.

You disagree and only see the punishment as not fitting the crime.  I respect that, but at the same time there is a reason it is recorded and that is for a lesson.  There are no bears roaming today's world expressly for the reason to maul those that go against God's Law...

[Crow]

Heh, actually the most aggressive, linear, assertive, forward-oriented wilderness-penetrating few people I know are mostly women. Repeat that to a matriarch and see what happens

This is why I like the old religions view of femininity which was always the givers and takers of life and the true power which I have found to be more apt. I have never met a male who was married that wasn't under their wifes thumb, and any man who thinks they are not are pretty delusional. I personally don't see women in the same way the bible portrays them as the examples just aren't true. Maybe its because I have grown up in a culture where we have mythological figures such as Boudica and Britannia, and have had some very powerful female leaders throughout history.

[xSilverPhinx]

There aren't any or many of such mythological and historical figures that are women (at least none that quickly spring to mind) where I live, though our first female president was just elected. Most people who had a problem with that are of the older generation, but it's a non issue. Brazil isn't an explicitly chauvinist country like some other are, especially under the grip of theocracy.

Meh, some men just really like their phallic symbols and are too preoccupied with them to really notice that other women are just letting them think they run things.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Heh, actually the most aggressive, linear, assertive, forward-oriented wilderness-penetrating few people I know are mostly women. Repeat that to a matriarch and see what happens

And I acknowledge that the boundaries between the masculine and the feminine are blurring more and more these days.  I grew up at the end of the age of masculine domination, and that was a different world. Perhaps this is one reason why young people today have fewer issues with homosexuality.  As the Kinks sang in Lola, "girls will be boys and boys will be girls"

[Ali]

I like the old saying "The man may be the head of the household, but the woman is the neck.  And she can turn the head whichever direction she wants." 

The phrase "Accepting penetration seems natural for them" made me quark a little.  I'm not sure why, but I think it's the "accepting" piece of it, like it is something that she is allowing and tolerating (maybe because she's so accepting and nurturing) rather than something that she wants or would initiate.  Ecurb, you definitely seem to view women as passive, people that things are done to and things happen to, and translate that to sexuality.  I don't think I have to tell you that I disagree, and see myself as a woman as a dynamic force that makes things happen.  Penetration is not a metaphor for ownership, passitivity, or degradation.  It's just what happens when slot A likes tab B. 

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I like the old saying "The man may be the head of the household, but the woman is the neck.  And she can turn the head whichever direction she wants." 

The phrase "Accepting penetration seems natural for them" made me quark a little.  I'm not sure why, but I think it's the "accepting" piece of it, like it is something that she is allowing and tolerating (maybe because she's so accepting and nurturing) rather than something that she wants or would initiate.  Ecurb, you definitely seem to view women as passive, people that things are done to and things happen to, and translate that to sexuality.  I don't think I have to tell you that I disagree, and see myself as a woman as a dynamic force that makes things happen.  Penetration is not a metaphor for ownership, passitivity, or degradation.  It's just what happens when slot A likes tab B. 

Generally, up until the time that the "sexual revolution" and feminist movement starting taking hold in the 60's and 70's, women were more passive sexually. That was my experience growing up in Texas.  So my general outlook, which was formed before the modern era of liberation and equality, reflected my experience.  Yes, things have changed, and now women are basically just as likely to initiate sexual encounters as men. But that does not change how I personally developed.  The aggressive woman is a rarity among the females that I grew up with.

[xSilverPhinx]

Heh, actually the most aggressive, linear, assertive, forward-oriented wilderness-penetrating few people I know are mostly women. Repeat that to a matriarch and see what happens

And I acknowledge that the boundaries between the masculine and the feminine are blurring more and more these days.  I grew up at the end of the age of masculine domination, and that was a different world. Perhaps this is one reason why young people today have fewer issues with homosexuality.  As the Kinks sang in Lola, "girls will be boys and boys will be girls"

But that's just the thing, I don't see those characteristics as being intrinsically masculine. The idea of the hunter man and gatherer woman for instance is an antiquated one and nowadays what's left really are phallic symbols.

But times change...for instance maybe a few centuries back it would've been inconcievable to have someone of African descent holding high office jobs in a white man dominanted environment. It's a non issue now, or at least it's supposed to be.

[fester30]

I like the old saying "The man may be the head of the household, but the woman is the neck.  And she can turn the head whichever direction she wants." 

The phrase "Accepting penetration seems natural for them" made me quark a little.  I'm not sure why, but I think it's the "accepting" piece of it, like it is something that she is allowing and tolerating (maybe because she's so accepting and nurturing) rather than something that she wants or would initiate.  Ecurb, you definitely seem to view women as passive, people that things are done to and things happen to, and translate that to sexuality.  I don't think I have to tell you that I disagree, and see myself as a woman as a dynamic force that makes things happen.  Penetration is not a metaphor for ownership, passitivity, or degradation.  It's just what happens when slot A likes tab B. 

I just managed to save my keyboard by turning my head just as the milk was escaping through my nose.  That was funny.