God is perfect

[Guardian85]

  One of my oldest and best friends is a devout Xian who is married to an even devouterer Xian.  Both of them love me and even trust me to be alone with their baby, blissfully unaware of my plan to corrupt the child and lead him into the black pit of atheism where I will feast upon his bones and make a keychain out of his left foot.

That's a new one...

[MadBomr101]

That's a new one...

I pride myself on thinking out of the box.

[Stevil]

That's a new one...

I pride myself on thinking out of the box.

Is there a box?

[Ecurb Noselrub]

My take on this is a little different.  Since Satan operates within God's will, and all that God created was "good," Satan's activities, while "evil" locally, function as a part of The Ultimate Good (the reconciliation of the cosmos with God).  So the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil (part of the metaphor in early Genesis), all function to carry out an ultimate plan of God.  The "evil" is on temporary, and assists in bringing about The Ultimate Good.

Your definition of Original Sin...prior to Man's?

I've moved away from that doctrine somewhat.  The Adam & Eve metaphor deals with what happens in each individual, not mankind as a whole.  Being "in Adam" simply means that we are human.  The reason we tend toward sin is our own innate self-centeredness, not something literal that happened in the Garden of Eden thousands of years ago.

[MadBomr101]

That's a new one...

I pride myself on thinking out of the box.

Is there a box?

There IS a box.  I can't prove it conclusively but if you have faith in the box it will make itself known to you so you can think out of it too.

[AnimatedDirt]

I've move away from that doctrine somewhat.  The Adam & Eve metaphor deals with what happens in each individual, not mankind as a whole.  Being "in Adam" simply means that we are human.  The reason we tend toward sin is our own innate self-centeredness, not something literal that happened in the Garden of Eden thousands of years ago.

I didn't mean the sin of Adam and Eve.  Clearly (or not) sin existed prior to Adam and Eve.  Maybe I'm confusing the term for this as Original Sin.  I meant the Serpent...Satan...Lucifer's sin.  (Ezekiel 28:11-19)  How he went from Lucifer to Serpent/Satan/Devil.

[Stevil]

That's a new one...

I pride myself on thinking out of the box.

Is there a box?

There IS a box.  I can't prove it conclusively but if you have faith in the box it will make itself known to you so you can think out of it too.

Just like the neutrino my thoughts pass through everything as if it isn't there.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I've move away from that doctrine somewhat.  The Adam & Eve metaphor deals with what happens in each individual, not mankind as a whole.  Being "in Adam" simply means that we are human.  The reason we tend toward sin is our own innate self-centeredness, not something literal that happened in the Garden of Eden thousands of years ago.

I didn't mean the sin of Adam and Eve.  Clearly (or not) sin existed prior to Adam and Eve.  Maybe I'm confusing the term for this as Original Sin.  I meant the Serpent...Satan...Lucifer's sin.  (Ezekiel 28:11-19)  How he went from Lucifer to Serpent/Satan/Devil.

There's a metaphorical account of this in Ezekiel 28, with Satan personified as the King of Tyre.  Verse 17 indicates that his "heart was lifted up because of (his) beauty."  In other words, self-centeredness.  If you want to find an original sin, that's it.  To a degree, self-centeredness or selfishness is Satan, the adversary.

[Stevil]

I've move away from that doctrine somewhat.  The Adam & Eve metaphor deals with what happens in each individual, not mankind as a whole.  Being "in Adam" simply means that we are human.  The reason we tend toward sin is our own innate self-centeredness, not something literal that happened in the Garden of Eden thousands of years ago.

I didn't mean the sin of Adam and Eve.  Clearly (or not) sin existed prior to Adam and Eve.  Maybe I'm confusing the term for this as Original Sin.  I meant the Serpent...Satan...Lucifer's sin.  (Ezekiel 28:11-19)  How he went from Lucifer to Serpent/Satan/Devil.

There's a metaphorical account of this in Ezekiel 28, with Satan personified as the King of Tyre.  Verse 17 indicates that his "heart was lifted up because of (his) beauty."  In other words, self-centeredness.  If you want to find an original sin, that's it.  To a degree, self-centeredness or selfishness is Satan, the adversary.

AD and Bruce, you guys may or may not find this an interesting read but I have read though heaps of Kevin Crady's posts and find they make a good read.
I haven't read or studied the bible so am not sure how accurate Kevin's posts could be, however he sounds intimately familiar with the bible.
Satan and the Serpent

[Ecurb Noselrub]

AD and Bruce, you guys may or may not find this an interesting read but I have read though heaps of Kevin Crady's posts and find they make a good read.
I haven't read or studied the bible so am not sure how accurate Kevin's posts could be, however he sounds intimately familiar with the bible.
Satan and the Serpent

Interesting take on it.  On one occasion in the NT, Jesus even referred to Peter, his main disciple, as "satan."  Peter was his adversary on that occasion.  So rather than Satan being a demon with a pitchfork, he can be seen as whatever adversarial forces oppose the will of God.  However, since all such forces ultimately owe their existence to God, they were part of his "good" universe, and are intended to work in such a way so that the end-result desired by God will be accomplished.  "Satan" is part of that ultimate plan. 

[Stevil]

Interesting take on it.  On one occasion in the NT, Jesus even referred to Peter, his main disciple, as "satan."  Peter was his adversary on that occasion.  So rather than Satan being a demon with a pitchfork, he can be seen as whatever adversarial forces oppose the will of God.  However, since all such forces ultimately owe their existence to God, they were part of his "good" universe, and are intended to work in such a way so that the end-result desired by God will be accomplished.  "Satan" is part of that ultimate plan. 

Does Satan have to mean adversary of god or could it simply mean adversary (of anyone)?

[Sandra Craft]

Because I don't know that and, unless you can prove it, neither do you.

Prove what? You're the one who brought it up. You're the atheist with all the cares and concerns about Satan. If you don't believe in Satan, then stop worrying about him.

I'd thought you brought it up, claiming there was a god and it created Satan tho you can offer no proof for any of this so it remains a very unbelievable story of yours.  And I can't stop worrying about Satan because of those rednecks you mentioned and the political situation I mentioned -- I'd love to shrug these silly stories off but the religiously-fueled political train wreck I fear is coming makes that impossible.

This is just one more thing you've made up.  And your version of god is very difficult to distinguish from Satan, as if you've done a mash up of the two for convenience.

Allow me to school you: If there is a God, and if there is a Satan, God would have had to create Satan. If God created Satan, we can assume it was for a reason.

If there is no God. Then who gives a damn about any of this conversation we're having?

Again with the stories and assumptions.  And again:  rednecks, politics, religiously-fueled train wreck.

What is it that you don't get that until you can prove it all you've got is a story you've made up?

There is no proof you would accept. None.

Actually, there was a thread about that and a number of people gave examples of what would convince them a god did, or at least might well, exist.

Even if you saw the dead rise again. Even if you saw a missing limb restored, you would simply say that it's a natural process we don't yet understand. You look at gravity and say that. You look at electromagnetism and say that. You look at dark matter and say that. You look at the Big Bang and say that. You want proof of a version of God that doesn't exist. You want proof of some YAWEH mythology that just isn't true, and you demand proof of that type of god because you don't ever really want proof at all. You like being an atheist and you want the real God to accept you that way. Ain't gonna happen.

Now you're saying god is nature?  I could actually go along with that part of it, but that doesn't seem to be what you mean elsewhere, in this and other threads.

Taken a look at politics in America lately?  As for the rest of it, most of us grow up thinking about god and assuming the stories everyone tells us must be real because why would anyone lie about a thing like that?  It's when we really think about it that the atheism comes in, since for many of us our reaction to the closely examined idea of a god is laughter at its absurdity, not terror.

Oh, I see. So you're still operating on the level of a child who just found out there was no Santa Claus. And you think this makes you enlightened? If there is a God, and if you think about it, you will realize that said God is also the God of the insect kingdom. He is also the God that gave dogs and cats really long canine teeth. He's also the God that makes a tree that produces a ton of leaves just for them to all dry up and be burned once a year. Or the gravity that fatally pulls one to the ground. Or the creator of the Third Reich.

Now god is the same as both nature and human weakness -- is nothing more than a completely arbitrary force?  I could also go along with that but it also does not seem to be what you've written about elsewhere.

You say I mix up God and Satan. No I don't. I think about it clearly, and I realize who God is and what He is capable of.

Which includes things that are, by any definition, satanic.  So really, how do you distinguish god from Satan if your god is doing it all?

I've never had a problem with the concept of hell. I'm very medieaval about it. I feel as right about it as Jesus Christ did, because I understand the utter and complete justice of it. I understand the righteousness of it.

You just can't reconcile the pictures you've seen of a smiling Jesus with a child on his lap and a lamb at his feet and a God who would give you cancer just to bring you to the spiritual place He designed you to be at. So you think you can just close your eyes and say He's not there. What mercy He shows you in giving you time.

If you don't like Christianity, you can have your own religion. You could be a mystic if you wanted to be and flavor it with any or all the religions of the world. What you have no excuse for is atheism.

In my humble opinion.

So I'm just being stubborn in not believing your stories?  I've got an invisible dragon in my garage anytime you want to drop by and worship it.

[Egor]

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

I must say, I am 47 years old, and I've been a Christian for about 40 of those years, and I've never, not once, seen that verse. In all the churches I've been to, in all the books I have read, it has never been preached. In fact, it has always been the opposite. I am simply astounded that that's in the Bible.

I've always believed it based on the teachings of Jesus Christ and just the logic of the idea of "God" but I had no idea the Bible said it so directly.

What about all this talk of being all-good? What about theodicy? If it says it so plainly right there in the Bible, why have people tried to make God out to be all loving and all-indulging and all-forgiving, and all warm and fuzzy?

If I went into any Christian forum right now and said, "God makes evil." I'd be banned instantly. They'd think I was a blasphemous troll.
You know, I'm beginning to think you can call yourself a Christian and simply believe and espouse anything you want. Perhaps everyone is supposed to make up their own Christianity. Maybe that's what God wanted all along, not a thousand different interpretations of Jesus Christ, but 6 billion.

[Egor]

Atheist don't care about mythical superstitious fantacies.

Oh BS, it's all you ever talk about. This whole forum is dedicated to it. If you didn't care, if you were a true atheist, you'd just walk away and go live out your life.

You're not an atheist. You're just looking for someone to prove God to you.

[Egor]

Christianity must be opposed when it leads people to vilify others (e.g. gays), or when it forces people to suffer (e.g. anti euthanasia), or when it causes people to pick up weapons and kill others (e.g. the Crusades, the Norway massacre), or when it persecutes people whom do not belong to its exclusive group (e.g. many, many incidents in the Bible Belt).

Wait a minute. I'm a Christian and I don't care one bit about gays. Jesus never mentioned them, so I don't give a damn. Sorry, but they're not special to me. I do believe in euthanasia, and are you really going to bring up a war that's 600 years old? As for the Norway masacare that guy was insane, and I have no idea what your last point is talking about. If you need to think of Christians in that light in order to maintain your atheism--have at it. It doesn't change a thing.

Atheists are right to want to understand ho a Christian can read the bible and then do these horrid things. Atheists need to understand the minds of the Christians so that we can attempt to convince them to behave nicely within society. Atheists are right to be confused when a Christian states that their god is loving and perfect despite the atrocities documented in the bible.

Western Society is built on Christianity; atheism would at best create a Soviet or North Korean type of society. It is you whom society has to be protected from.

Atheism needs no excuse, nobody had killed, murdered, tortured, massacred, oppressed in the name of Atheism.
A disbelief in god is the only rational option given there is no evidence of any god, there isn't even a clear definition of what a god is.

That's why I'm writing a book even now.