For theism: "God, what is your religion?"

[Too Few Lions]

[Really? Then why this?

'Approach, you nations, to hear,
and listen, you peoples;
let the earth hear, and everything in it,
the world and all its offspring;
the lord rages against the nations
and his wrath against all their host:
he has prepared them for slaughter and destruction.
their slain shall be cast out,
the stench of their corpses will rise,
and the mountains will flow with their blood'

Isaiah 34.1-3

That was not one of Isaiah's best days. 

That's an understatement, but an amusing answer, I like it. I guess the question is why one of Yahweh's prophets would have said it, and why it's still held as scripture and the utterings of a divinely inspired  prophet and not just the ramblings of a crazy misanthrope!

Since all the nations were not slaughtered, perhaps whoever wrote this was not uttering a true prophecy. 

Again, I think 'perhaps' is maybe an understatement! But Isaiah isn't the only prophet of god to utter false prophecy in the Bible , god's very own son is guilty of false prophecy (Matthew 24.34-5)

When I interpret the Bible, I do so from the standpoint of one who believes that he has experienced God.  My personal experience of God is primary. 

Out of interest Bruce, how do you feel about ancient Egyptians who experienced those exact same feelings for Osiris, or ancient Greeks who experienced them about Zeus, or Romans who experienced them about Mithras, or Hindus who experience them about Shiva etc etc. Do you concede that those deities must exist too as people have experienced their presence? Do you think that maybe you might have experienced Allah and not Jesus if you'd lived in Afghanistan, or Vishnu if you'd lived in India?

[Tank]

What is your personal experience? Do tell.

There have been many, but the first one was when I was 19. While I was reading a passage from Matthew in a particularly low moment in my life, I felt the sensation of something entering me from the outside (actually at my solar plexus region), which was accompanied by the most intense ecstasy I have ever experienced.  All I can say is that I had an inward assurance at the time that this was Jesus - there was no question in my mind about that, and the euphoria had a distinctly personal aspect to it.  While I heard no audible voice, my thoughts were captive to what seemed to be an inner voice identifying itself as that of Jesus.   While I had a Christian background, nothing in my previous experience had prepared me for this.

Over the years, I've had many subjective experiences in this category (none this intense), all of which included a sense of divine presence.  When I was younger in college, a couple of these occurred while I was taking LSD, but since then none of them were related to drugs.  They usually involved euphoria, ecstasy, peace or extreme joy.  Once when I was driving I thought my jaw was going to pop, my mouth was open so wide in ecstatic joy.  Always, again, the sense of the presence of Jesus/Spirit of God is there.  On some occasions, I experience the phenomenon of speaking in tongues, which I don't understand, but which seem to bubble up from my mid-section.  

On a more practical level, there is often the sense that I'm being led.  Things work out, doors open up, inspiration comes for some problem.  The overall end result of my life is that things have worked out OK, and sometimes I'm overcome by a sense of thankfulness and gratitude.  These are all subjective sensations, and to the outside observer there would not be any blinding light or empirically established observation.  They are personal experiences to me, and I've come to realize that they have little if any impact on anyone else.  So I'm not very evangelical about them anymore, and just discuss them like I am now.

Thank you very much for that post. Most interesting. Would you clarify one thing for me please? Had you taken LSD before your experience at 19?

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Thank you very much for that post. Most interesting. Would you clarify one thing for me please? Had you taken LSD before your experience at 19?

Before, yes, but at the time of the experience I was not on a trip. I had taken it earlier that day, and the hallucinations had ended.     

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Out of interest Bruce, how do you feel about ancient Egyptians who experienced those exact same feelings for Osiris, or ancient Greeks who experienced them about Zeus, or Romans who experienced them about Mithras, or Hindus who experience them about Shiva etc etc. Do you concede that those deities must exist too as people have experienced their presence? Do you think that maybe you might have experienced Allah and not Jesus if you'd lived in Afghanistan, or Vishnu if you'd lived in India?

I can't really judge their experiences, but I think that it is highly possible that all people who have similar experiences are, in fact, having some form of contact with God.  Yes, if I lived in another culture, that would color my experience.  But all I know is what I have experienced, and there is no question for me about the identity of the one I have communed with.  What that means about the validity of other's experiences, I really don't know.  Maybe we are all approaching the same summit from different routes - it just seems that my route is the best/clearest path.  But again, that's just me.

[xSilverPhinx]

Bruce, have you ever had any of these experiences in a non religious setting? Like when you were just going about your day and not reading the bible, in a Church, surrounded by religious people or thinking deeply about religious issues?

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Damn right your experiences are subjective, but sadly because of their subjectivity they offer no strengthening to the theistic viewpoint that you put on here. I'd simply guess you just suffered personal delusions due to your faith. There is nothing there that says to me "god" As for doors opening and stuff, you never heard of co-incidence and good fortune?

Anyhow, thanks for telling. At least I understand more about how you still have faith when you reject half of the crap in the bible apart from the "good bits". Yep, my understanding now is that your faith is based on personal delusions. Don't take offence at me saying that though, because all theists are the same, it's nothing personal.

I don't take offense. I wouldn't really expect you to alter your view based on my subjective experiences.  I disagree about delusions, but I suppose in the final analysis it doesn't matter if you agree with me or I with you.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Bruce, have you ever had any of these experiences in a non religious setting? Like when you were just going about your day and not reading the bible, in a Church, surrounded by religious people or thinking deeply about religious issues?

Absolutely.  I love to travel and hike and camp out (the deserts and mountains of West Texas are my favorite areas - at night you can see the Milky Way like it was the Strip in Las Vegas), and sometimes I'm so overcome by the beauty that one of these experiences arises.  Or I may just be on my back porch looking at a sunrise or the night sky.  Or it might just happen in a common, every day occurrence.  More often than not, they surprise me.  Going to a very boring church service is probably a guarantee that it won't happen, but if it's inspirational, that's another matter.

[Norfolk And Chance]

Thank you very much for that post. Most interesting. Would you clarify one thing for me please? Had you taken LSD before your experience at 19?

Before, yes, but at the time of the experience I was not on a trip. I had taken it earlier that day, and the hallucinations had ended.    

Trips can come back hours or days after ending, and so now we know that you hallucinated your god experience.

As if we didn't know it anyway.

So now we know, you reject large parts of the bible and hallucinated god experiences on drugs, and that forms the basis of your faith.

I'd be questioning my faith, in your shoes.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Thank you very much for that post. Most interesting. Would you clarify one thing for me please? Had you taken LSD before your experience at 19?

Before, yes, but at the time of the experience I was not on a trip. I had taken it earlier that day, and the hallucinations had ended.    

Trips can come back hours or days after ending, and so now we know that you hallucinated your god experience.

As if we didn't know it anyway.

So now we know, you reject large parts of the bible and hallucinated god experiences on drugs, and that forms the basis of your faith.

I'd be questioning my faith, in your shoes.

I have questioned it for the past 40 years, as I continued to have experiences of God's presence without any drugs.  You are looking for an easy explanation and think you have found it.  That's certainly your prerogative.

[Norfolk And Chance]

I have questioned it for the past 40 years, as I continued to have experiences of God's presence without any drugs.

LSD flashbacks.

You are looking for an easy explanation and think you have found it.  That's certainly your prerogative.

I have no explanation for why you or any other theist continues to believe. It is extremely frustrating because the things that you all build your faith on can easily be destroyed by logic and reason.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I have questioned it for the past 40 years, as I continued to have experiences of God's presence without any drugs.

LSD flashbacks.

You don't know what you are talking about. Admit it now, before you start to look desperate.

[xSilverPhinx]

Bruce, have you ever had any of these experiences in a non religious setting? Like when you were just going about your day and not reading the bible, in a Church, surrounded by religious people or thinking deeply about religious issues?

Absolutely.  I love to travel and hike and camp out (the deserts and mountains of West Texas are my favorite areas - at night you can see the Milky Way like it was the Strip in Las Vegas), and sometimes I'm so overcome by the beauty that one of these experiences arises.  Or I may just be on my back porch looking at a sunrise or the night sky.  Or it might just happen in a common, every day occurrence.  More often than not, they surprise me.  Going to a very boring church service is probably a guarantee that it won't happen, but if it's inspirational, that's another matter.

Ok, but why do you attribute them to some sort of divine experience? Does anything follow that convinces you that it is god talking to you or even more specifically, the Christian god?

Edited to add: Now I'm wondering, was your religious experience in anyway like your LSD trips?

[Norfolk And Chance]

I have questioned it for the past 40 years, as I continued to have experiences of God's presence without any drugs.

LSD flashbacks.

You don't know what you are talking about. Admit it now, before you start to look desperate.

Hey, I'm not the one that thinks he's been contacted by something that doesn't exist. No desperation here my friend.

When you start talking about things that you cannot prove and have zero measurable evidence for, you can't really say other people don't know what they are talking about?

[Tank]

I have questioned it for the past 40 years, as I continued to have experiences of God's presence without any drugs.

LSD flashbacks.

You don't know what you are talking about. Admit it now, before you start to look desperate.

One simple Google search does make a start LSD

Spiritual

LSD is considered an entheogen because it can catalyze intense spiritual experiences, during which users may feel they have come into contact with a greater spiritual or cosmic order. Users claim to experience lucid sensations where they have "out of body" experiences. Some users report insights into the way the mind works, and some experience permanent shifts in their life perspective. LSD also allows users to view their life from an introspected point of view. From this point of view, a user can travel back in time to a specific moment or memory and relive that moment again.[citation needed] Some users report using introspection to resolve unresolved or negative feelings towards an individual or incident that occurred in the past. Some users consider LSD a religious sacrament, or a powerful tool for access to the divine. Stanislav Grof has written that religious and mystical experiences observed during LSD sessions appear to be phenomenologically indistinguishable from similar descriptions in the sacred scriptures of the great religions of the world and the secret mystical texts of ancient civilizations.[36]

Now I could go on but I think that I have seen enough to reasonably conclude that your Faith is probably based on the use of one of the most notorious hallucinogenic drugs known.

[Gawen]

Meh....it is not unheard of of people taking drugs and finding the spiritual, mystical, miraculous...even the gods. And it makes quite a bit of sense for a person who's down on his luck, reading religious material right after a trip.

I use the word "delusion" in this context: A belief strongly held in spite of invalidating, no good or lack of evidence. I have to say that Bruce's finding god was brought on by hallucinogenics and emotion. It would appear no other evidence is necessary...because we all know LSD is a valid and superb evidence of the existence of God. I wonder if God made Bruce take an illegal drug so Bruce could find God....