For theism: "God, what is your religion?"

[Ecurb Noselrub]

It is an interesting question. What does God believe?

"Believe" is reserved for things that one does not "know."  If there is knowledge, there is no need for belief or faith.  So, if God is omniscient, he doesn't "believe" anything.  On the other hand, if God knows a whole lot, but is not quite omniscient, then he probably believes something. What would he believe?  Things that he does not know.  What does he not know?  Every single thing that we are going to do.  Otherwise, the idea of freedom (which even Jesus promised - "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free") would not be possible.  

So, my God, the Christian God, is not quite omniscient. He doesn't know everything that people will do.  He's smart enough to be prepared for all the contingencies, but how it actually plays out, he doesn't know. Think of a chess master playing a beginner - the end result is assured (chess master wins), but exactly what plays the beginner will make are unknown.  But God "believes" that he has it all under control in the end.  

There are a couple of statements in the first chapters of Genesis that I have always found intriguing. First, in Genesis 2, he watches Adam to see what he will name the various animals - he doesn't know.  Then, in Genesis 10 (I think - too lazy to look it up), in the Tower of Babel story, God says that if he doesn't come in and disrupt things, that nothing man decides to do will be impossible.  So, God doesn't know exactly what we will do, but he believes that we can do anything.  

God believed in Job - that Job would pass the test.  God believed in Jesus - that he would accomplish the plan.  So, this is a theist's answer to what God believes - his "religion" (his faith) is wrapped up in human beings.  In a real sense, He believes in us.

[Siz]

If there is knowledge, there is no need for belief or faith.

You heard it here first...

[Too Few Lions]

If there is knowledge, there is no need for belief or faith.

You heard it here first...

Doesn't that make us atheists the most knowledgable on the subject of gods?

[Too Few Lions]

It is an interesting question. What does God believe?

There are a couple of statements in the first chapters of Genesis that I have always found intriguing. First, in Genesis 2, he watches Adam to see what he will name the various animals - he doesn't know.  Then, in Genesis 10 (I think - too lazy to look it up), in the Tower of Babel story, God says that if he doesn't come in and disrupt things, that nothing man decides to do will be impossible.  So, God doesn't know exactly what we will do, but he believes that we can do anything. 

God believed in Job - that Job would pass the test.  God believed in Jesus - that he would accomplish the plan.  So, this is a theist's answer to what God believes - his "religion" (his faith) is wrapped up in human beings.  In a real sense, He believes in us.

Really? Then why this?

'Approach, you nations, to hear,
and listen, you peoples;
let the earth hear, and everything in it,
the world and all its offspring;
the lord rages against the nations
and his wrath against all their host:
he has prepared them for slaughter and destruction.
their slain shall be cast out,
the stench of their corpses will rise,
and the mountains will flow with their blood'

Isaiah 34.1-3

By discussing Yahweh's thoughts and motives in the Garden of Eden, the Tower of Babel and Book of Job I think you've reduced your deity to mythology and a literary creation. We may as well be discussing Ishtar's motives in descending to the underworld or Zeus' interaction with humanity in the Iliad. And what was 'the plan'? 'Go down to Earth son, preach a bit of Greek philosophy and get yourself crucified'
IMHO not the best plan ever conceived!

[Davin]

If objective morality is god, and good is god, and all those other flowery attributes are god... then all that there is left for god, is nihilism. There is no higher purpose for the god.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

It is an interesting question. What does God believe?

There are a couple of statements in the first chapters of Genesis that I have always found intriguing. First, in Genesis 2, he watches Adam to see what he will name the various animals - he doesn't know.  Then, in Genesis 10 (I think - too lazy to look it up), in the Tower of Babel story, God says that if he doesn't come in and disrupt things, that nothing man decides to do will be impossible.  So, God doesn't know exactly what we will do, but he believes that we can do anything. 

God believed in Job - that Job would pass the test.  God believed in Jesus - that he would accomplish the plan.  So, this is a theist's answer to what God believes - his "religion" (his faith) is wrapped up in human beings.  In a real sense, He believes in us.

Really? Then why this?

'Approach, you nations, to hear,
and listen, you peoples;
let the earth hear, and everything in it,
the world and all its offspring;
the lord rages against the nations
and his wrath against all their host:
he has prepared them for slaughter and destruction.
their slain shall be cast out,
the stench of their corpses will rise,
and the mountains will flow with their blood'

Isaiah 34.1-3

By discussing Yahweh's thoughts and motives in the Garden of Eden, the Tower of Babel and Book of Job I think you've reduced your deity to mythology and a literary creation. We may as well be discussing Ishtar's motives in descending to the underworld or Zeus' interaction with humanity in the Iliad. And what was 'the plan'? 'Go down to Earth son, preach a bit of Greek philosophy and get yourself crucified'
IMHO not the best plan ever conceived!

That was not one of Isaiah's best days.  Since all the nations were not slaughtered, perhaps whoever wrote this was not uttering a true prophecy.  When I interpret the Bible, I do so from the standpoint of one who believes that he has experienced God.  My personal experience of God is primary.  I look for things in the Bible that match up with my personal experience, that resonate with how I see God.  Since the Bible is not the primary source of my faith, the fact that I interpret certain parts of it metaphorically does not reduce God to a literary creation.  I'm discussing how people have conveyed their experience of God in the Bible - that's all.  Whatever the Bible means, I'm still left with my own experience.

[Norfolk And Chance]

Tell us about your primary experiences with god.

Otherwise your posts explaining that your faith is built on your own experiences are completely meaningless.

[Gawen]

"Believe" is reserved for things that one does not "know."  If there is knowledge, there is no need for belief or faith.  So, if God is omniscient, he doesn't "believe" anything.

Now you know why, in past threads here, the word "belief" is not in my vocabulary. Belief automatically assumes doubt. I either know or do not know.  

On the other hand, if God knows a whole lot, but is not quite omniscient, then he probably believes something. What would he believe?  Things that he does not know.  What does he not know?  Every single thing that we are going to do.  Otherwise, the idea of freedom (which even Jesus promised - "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free") would not be possible.

That is not what Paul tells us. Yet another contradiction within the bible.

God believed in Jesus - that he would accomplish the plan.

By introducing Jesus along with this plan, God screwed over his chosen people and revoked an eternal covenant with them. It is no different than a spouse cheating on the other for no good reason other than to arbitrarily cheat. IOW, "I do it because I can - never mind the vows I make". This act, in my opinion renders God into an empty douche bag. Even douche bags have a purpose, but when one changes the contents or it's only filled with hot air, it just doesn't do the job, does it?

[Gawen]

That was not one of Isaiah's best days.

You would know this...how? 

Since all the nations were not slaughtered, perhaps whoever wrote this was not uttering a true prophecy.

Then why is it in the Bible?

When I interpret the Bible, I do so from the standpoint of one who believes that he has experienced God.  My personal experience of God is primary.  I look for things in the Bible that match up with my personal experience, that resonate with how I see God.

How typical...for any believer in any religion.

Since the Bible is not the primary source of my faith, the fact that I interpret certain parts of it metaphorically does not reduce God to a literary creation.

So where/when do the literary portions stop and the real ones begin?

I'm discussing how people have conveyed their experience of God in the Bible - that's all.  Whatever the Bible means, I'm still left with my own experience.

And despite your reasoning skills, of which you show proficient use thereof, you still cannot see the delusion?

[Norfolk And Chance]

I want to know what his experience is, otherwise it is all babble.

[Gawen]

I want to know what his experience is, otherwise it is all babble.

It could be interesting. But I attach no proof to religious experiences or their testimonials as they are only evidences to the one experiencing it.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

That was not one of Isaiah's best days.

You would know this...how? 

Just my opinion.  He seems like he's ranting, and anyway, God didn't destroy all the nations.

Since all the nations were not slaughtered, perhaps whoever wrote this was not uttering a true prophecy.

Then why is it in the Bible?

You'd have to ask the ancient rabbis and scribes who assembled the OT that one.  I suspect over time the more beautiful parts of Isaiah had come to be very popular (there is some excellent poetry in it) and the book was generally accepted.  They considered it inspired, and eventually rabbis and priests began using it as an authoritative source. It evolved into scripture.

Since the Bible is not the primary source of my faith, the fact that I interpret certain parts of it metaphorically does not reduce God to a literary creation.

So where/when do the literary portions stop and the real ones begin?

You would have to look at each book. For example, I think the first 11 chapters of Genesis are primarily either poetical/metaphorical or mythical/legendary, while beginning in chapter 12 you have a general historical story, which has been edited and expanded over the years, probably going through a significant period of oral transmission before being written down.  Every book is going to be different.

I'm discussing how people have conveyed their experience of God in the Bible - that's all.  Whatever the Bible means, I'm still left with my own experience.

And despite your reasoning skills, of which you show proficient use thereof, you still cannot see the delusion?

I could be deluded, and we are all probably deluded about something (whether some person actually loves us or whether a politician is actually going to do what he promises, for example). But to date my overall personal experience causes me to conclude that it is more likely not a delusion.  But that's just  my opinion.
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[Norfolk And Chance]

What is your personal experience? Do tell.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

What is your personal experience? Do tell.

There have been many, but the first one was when I was 19. While I was reading a passage from Matthew in a particularly low moment in my life, I felt the sensation of something entering me from the outside (actually at my solar plexus region), which was accompanied by the most intense ecstasy I have ever experienced.  All I can say is that I had an inward assurance at the time that this was Jesus - there was no question in my mind about that, and the euphoria had a distinctly personal aspect to it.  While I heard no audible voice, my thoughts were captive to what seemed to be an inner voice identifying itself as that of Jesus.   While I had a Christian background, nothing in my previous experience had prepared me for this.

Over the years, I've had many subjective experiences in this category (none this intense), all of which included a sense of divine presence.  When I was younger in college, a couple of these occurred while I was taking LSD, but since then none of them were related to drugs.  They usually involved euphoria, ecstasy, peace or extreme joy.  Once when I was driving I thought my jaw was going to pop, my mouth was open so wide in ecstatic joy.  Always, again, the sense of the presence of Jesus/Spirit of God is there.  On some occasions, I experience the phenomenon of speaking in tongues, which I don't understand, but which seem to bubble up from my mid-section.  

On a more practical level, there is often the sense that I'm being led.  Things work out, doors open up, inspiration comes for some problem.  The overall end result of my life is that things have worked out OK, and sometimes I'm overcome by a sense of thankfulness and gratitude.  These are all subjective sensations, and to the outside observer there would not be any blinding light or empirically established observation.  They are personal experiences to me, and I've come to realize that they have little if any impact on anyone else.  So I'm not very evangelical about them anymore, and just discuss them like I am now.

[Norfolk And Chance]

Damn right your experiences are subjective, but sadly because of their subjectivity they offer no strengthening to the theistic viewpoint that you put on here. I'd simply guess you just suffered personal delusions due to your faith. There is nothing there that says to me "god" As for doors opening and stuff, you never heard of co-incidence and good fortune?

Anyhow, thanks for telling. At least I understand more about how you still have faith when you reject half of the crap in the bible apart from the "good bits". Yep, my understanding now is that your faith is based on personal delusions. Don't take offence at me saying that though, because all theists are the same, it's nothing personal.