No human will according to science?

[iSok]

Atheists can ponder the same type of questions, only without invoking the idea of any supernatural being(s) or entity/entities.

Did I say that they can't? )

You are what the majority of people would call a "moderate Muslim".

I pray five times day.
I fast during the month of Ramadam.
I don't drink, I don't visit clubs.
I have a beard..etc..

Majority of people will not sit next to me in the train, I might detonate anytime

[LegendarySandwich]

Atheists can ponder the same type of questions, only without invoking the idea of any supernatural being(s) or entity/entities.

Did I say that they can't? )

You don't need religion to avoid doing those things and being a better person.

By the way, what's wrong with loving material "stuff"? Everything is material (except your god). Are you saying you only love your god now, to the exclusion of everything else?

I pray five times day.
I fast during the month of Ramadam.
I don't drink, I don't visit clubs.
I have a beard..etc..

Majority of people will not sit next to me in the train, I might detonate anytime

That's just stereotyping.

[Whitney]

We frankly don't know enough about the universe or brain function to make an educated decision on if our actions are predetermined.  

God or not, it's possible that chemically true free-will is impossible and we are a slave to our environment and can do nothing to change our nature.

Throw an all knowing all knowing god into the mix and our chances of having a true free-will gets even smaller.

Nonetheless, I still live my life as if I have free will...because I might, the way people act seems a lot like free will, and if feel like I make decisions free from direct influence.  Even if I knew I didn't have free will I obviously wouldn't have a choice to not live as if I have free will.  

I suspect that our brains take in information from the environment, process it, and we develop a decision on the fly and that even in the same environment we would not always make the same decision because sometimes one decision isn't necessarily better than another.  If I'm right, that sounds like free will to me; maybe some scientists have or will verify that some day.

Anyway, are you just pointing this out because you found it interesting or do you think that lack of free will due to materialism is somehow a reason to believe in a god?

[LegendarySandwich]

We frankly don't know enough about the universe or brain function to make an educated decision on if our actions are predetermined.  

God or not, it's possible that chemically true free-will is impossible and we are a slave to our environment and can do nothing to change our nature.

Throw an all knowing all knowing god into the mix and our chances of having a true free-will gets even smaller.

Nonetheless, I still live my life as if I have free will...because I might, the way people act seems a lot like free will, and if feel like I make decisions free from direct influence.  Even if I knew I didn't have free will I obviously wouldn't have a choice to not live as if I have free will.  

I suspect that our brains take in information from the environment, process it, and we develop a decision on the fly and that even in the same environment we would not always make the same decision because sometimes one decision isn't necessarily better than another.  If I'm right, that sounds like free will to me; maybe some scientists have or will verify that some day.

Anyway, are you just pointing this out because you found it interesting or do you think that lack of free will due to materialism is somehow a reason to believe in a god?

Think of it this way: if you go back in time and do nothing at all, could events simply change at random? Or would it play out exactly as it did before?

[Whitney]

Think of it this way: if you go back in time and do nothing at all, could events simply change at random? Or would it play out exactly as it did before?

I'm not sure what that has to do with free will.

Of course if I did nothing there would be events that wouldn't happen, events that would happen (that wouldn't otherwise) and many of these would have a butterfly effect.  But that's because our decisions affect the choices available in future situations.

Like if I decide to run a red light and kill someone yet went back and did nothing that person would still be alive.  That situation could happen regardless of if I have free will.

[LegendarySandwich]

Think of it this way: if you go back in time and do nothing at all, could events simply change at random? Or would it play out exactly as it did before?

I'm not sure what that has to do with free will.

It points out that true free will is most likely impossible, as all our actions are a result of previous actions, and, in the exact same situation, we would make the exact same "choices".

Of course if I did nothing there would be events that wouldn't happen, events that would happen (that wouldn't otherwise) and many of these would have a butterfly effect.  But that's because our decisions affect the choices available in future situations.

That's missing the point.

[Whitney]

I'm not sure that proves no free will.

If I ran the red light because I was looking at a text I could have just as easily not looked at the text in the same situation...it would be a difference of me deciding to do what is right (not look at the text till stopped) or to make a poor decision (to look at the text).

[LegendarySandwich]

I'm not sure that proves no free will.

If I ran the red light because I was looking at a text I could have just as easily not looked at the text in the same situation...it would be a difference of me deciding to do what is right (not look at the text till stopped) or to make a poor decision (to look at the text).

Are you so sure that you can actually make that choice? Yes, it gives a very, very convincing illusion of choice, but if you knew yourself better you would have known what course of action you had to take, based on previous actions.

[Whitney]

I'm not sure that proves no free will.

If I ran the red light because I was looking at a text I could have just as easily not looked at the text in the same situation...it would be a difference of me deciding to do what is right (not look at the text till stopped) or to make a poor decision (to look at the text).

Are you so sure that you can actually make that choice? Yes, it gives a very, very convincing illusion of choice, but if you knew yourself better you would have known what course of action you had to take, based on previous actions.

But how do you know this?

My position is we don't know enough about the universe or brain to know that there is no possible way that things could have turned out differently if suddenly we were back at the beginning of life and things were allowed to run their course again.

[LegendarySandwich]

I'm not sure that proves no free will.

If I ran the red light because I was looking at a text I could have just as easily not looked at the text in the same situation...it would be a difference of me deciding to do what is right (not look at the text till stopped) or to make a poor decision (to look at the text).

Are you so sure that you can actually make that choice? Yes, it gives a very, very convincing illusion of choice, but if you knew yourself better you would have known what course of action you had to take, based on previous actions.

But how do you know this?

My position is we don't know enough about the universe or brain to know that there is no possible way that things could have turned out differently if suddenly we were back at the beginning of life and things were allowed to run their course again.

My current understanding is that all research indicates that determinism is true. Of course, we can't know for sure, but you can say that for just about anything. I think that, logically, it's almost impossible to deny determinism without resorting to the supernatural.

[The Magic Pudding]

My current understanding is that all research indicates that determinism is true. Of course, we can't know for sure, but you can say that for just about anything. I think that, logically, it's almost impossible to deny determinism without resorting to the supernatural.

I'm not sure about "all research" Thumpa and others have refereed to randomness of atomic decay, I can't say I understand this.  I could question whether it just seems random, but I probably wouldn't understand the answer.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6084&start=15

[LegendarySandwich]

I'm not sure about "all research" Thumpa and others have refereed to randomness of atomic decay, I can't say I understand this.  I could question whether it just seems random, but I probably wouldn't understand the answer.
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewto ... 4&start=15

Maybe I shouldn't have referred to determinism. What I really meant to say was that my current understanding is that all current research points to there being no free will.

[Whitney]

I think that, logically, it's almost impossible to deny determinism without resorting to the supernatural.

But there is no logical reason to assume determinism unless there is scientific evidence that everything is determined (unless you have an argument for determinism solely based on logic)....and as far as I can tell determinism has neither been confirmed or denied by science.

[LegendarySandwich]

http://homepages.luc.edu/~avande1/free-will-args.htm
I have to say, most of these arguments sucked balls, although #6 is similar to what Whitney is saying.

[LegendarySandwich]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/ ... 2010-04-06
I'd choose to give the parents the documents. I don't think I could bring myself to strangle an innocent six-year-old, even if would grow up to be one of the most "evil" dictators the world has ever known.

EDIT: Wow, the comments section of that article may even be more interesting than the article itself. All this stuff is very confusing.