No human will according to science?

[iSok]

I often think about this, for example if the whole world can be explained
by materialism, so God would play no part and won't even exist.
Then wouldn't that mean that we are senseless robots, you might think 'ehh....are you deluted?'.

I'll try to explain.

We as humans still do not know what the most tiny particle is, we are already far beyond quarks.

If science says, that every thought, every motion in your brain, is a consequence of
particular chemical reactions. Then how did those reactions start? And what action triggered that? And what action triggered that? and so on...and on..and on....
This would mean, that what my thoughts are at moment, the 'universe' already knew it 5 billion years ago.

Because my thoughts are created because of certain chemical particles, those chemical particles already existed 5 billion years ago.

Does this make sense? Every action has a rection, and that leads to another action, so basically if we just go by science, everything has already been pre-destined?
Where are the 'headquarters' of the human will? And what controlls that headquarter? Is there any 'headquarter'?

That would mean that the particle that will cause your DNA in a certain cell to mutate, which means you will get cancer is already on it's journey
to reach you in a year or 15 so. And nothing is going to stop that particle, because every thought you have has already been pre-destined?

Even what I'm doing now, was already pre-destined.
Basically everything you do, whatever you think.


And in the midst of this chaos of billions and trillions of particles flying everywhere, we don't suddenly fall apart or decompose?
And somehow humanity advances through technology? Why do we advance? That would mean that small particles change their behaviour...

It makes no sense...What is the source of our intelligence?


For example.

I decide for a certain reason to punch you in your face.

- My brains will send particles to my muscles
- I'll punch you
- You'll feel pain, because particles send a signal to your brain.
- You'll feel angry, because certain particles tell you to do so.

What I mean, there is a never ending action - reaction, something we can't get our grip on.
Simply because we are a product of that process accroding to science.
So we as humans have nothing to say, and we can even calculate in the near feature what happened in the past
and what will happen in the future. By just making trillions calculations of particulars coliding, and looking what way they will go.

Another example, so why did life on Earth start?
If it happened just by chance, if it did..
Then why do we continue to progress?

It's as if, some weird atom was traveling through space and saw this rock, and somehow decided by it's own will
to curve it's orbit and have some fun on earth...other atoms joined him too, and together they formed moleculs which
was the base for DNA.

Then we are nothing more than the product of the universe's 'billiard' game.
We don't even exist, we are just made of a couple of billions particles that somehow link together
and we respresent them. Which means that even our emotion is fake and not real, since it's a product of particles bumping one and another.






Now, does this make sense? Or should I start taking pills?

[LARA]

iSok wrote: For example.

I decide for a certain reason to punch you in your face.

- My brains will send particles to my muscles
- I'll punch you
- You'll feel pain, because particles send a signal to your brain.
- You'll feel angry, because certain particles tell you to do so.

What I mean, there is a never ending action - reaction, something we can't get our grip on.

iSok,

You decide for a reason to punch me in the face
I decide to move out of the way before that punch lands.

This is free will, and still scientifically valid.

[iSok]

iSok wrote: For example.

I decide for a certain reason to punch you in your face.

- My brains will send particles to my muscles
- I'll punch you
- You'll feel pain, because particles send a signal to your brain.
- You'll feel angry, because certain particles tell you to do so.

What I mean, there is a never ending action - reaction, something we can't get our grip on.

iSok,

You decide for a reason to punch me in the face
I decide to move out of the way before that punch lands.

This is free will, and still scientifically valid.

So how did you see my punch coming? Because you saw my hand coming, a signal for cells within your eyes went to your brains.
Your brains activate your muscles, you move.

For this whole action, particles are needed. let's say the smallest particle is an atom.

So it wasn't your own will, because that doesn't exist here.

Your life is a product of continuous colishion (I need to work on my English..) of atoms.
You have nothing to say in the matter.

How do you activate your free will?
There's no such thing as a place in your brain where atoms are waiting for orders.
And where does that order come from to react? Because every action must be explained in matter, even if it's an quark.
And that means that we are simple subjects, in fact we don't even 'exist'.

Like I said before, every emotion, our free will is because of particles and not some magical order to command your atoms to do this.


The entire Universe consists out of zillions and billions and quadrozillions particles, in short.. A LOT!

If theoretically, we can calculate the orbit of each tiny particle. Then we have the knowledge of the past and the future.

But we can never control it, because we are a part of it. There is no such thing as free will......and in fact, it's Destiny.
Every thought you have now, every action you take..all of it was destined to be.

[DJAkuma]

Read up on the heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Aside from that you've almost got a handle on it, the laws of physics are what make the universe tick. Free will is a strange thing, I think it's more or less an illusion. You decide to do things or think things based on a large number of factors including your past experience and knowledge. If every neuron of your brain could be modeled you could run a computer simulation and it would likely make the same decisions and think the same things as you when presented with the same stimuli in much the same way that if you fill a room with hydrogen and oxygen and set off a spark you're going to get water. It wouldn't happen any other way, the hydrogen and oxygen atoms can't suddenly decide to break with tradition and bond with their nuclei instead of their electrons and become fluorine instead.

[Stevil]

Then we are nothing more than the product of the universe's 'billiard' game.
We don't even exist, we are just made of a couple of billions particles that somehow link together
and we respresent them. Which means that even our emotion is fake and not real, since it's a product of particles bumping one and another.

That is what is so cool and beautiful about it all, embrace it, it is truly amazing. So amazing that it fascinates us and fills us with wonder and creates a burning ambition in some to find the answers, no matter how difficult or futile the search is.

Others seem to want the answers immediately and cannot stand not knowing hence they look for quick answers to everything which may not necessarily explain anything.

Others refuse to come to an understanding that they are insignificant in the cosmos, they want to believe that they will always exist, that they will always be important, that they are special.

I feel special, just being insignificant and trying to make sense of this glorious place I am privileged to live in.

[iSok]

Well, this is where I disagree.
One of the many... many points, I disagree with materialism.
I just can't believe that we can represent this infinite chaos ... by chance.
There must be an Organizer.

It is as if there are billions of giant meteors moving towards Earth, but all of them miss Earth just by chance.

Mankind somehow found the theory of evolution (it is plausible)
Still it's a theory, but even if it's true...it doesn't prove that God doesn't exist.
As a matter of fact, if evolution is true, personally I think it's even more proof for the existence of God.


I don't really neccesarily talk about neurons..but about the smallest particles possible...
In the end it's all a result of different collisions, and we are the result of it.
Everything we do, has already been settled.

For a long time I didn't understand the concept of 'Al-Qadar (Pre-Destiny)' within Islam.
It's not pre-destined for mankind, but pre-ordained.


(This topic is not really science related anymore I think..move it to Religion)


@Stevil.

The difference is, that I do not see any reason NOT to believe.
Basically there's not a single proof on the world that will say 'God does not exist'.

I consider mankind, nothing more than a baby, but somehow this baby with his primitive
science in the infinite universe already denied it's Creator's existence.

Everywhere I look, I see organization.
Just think of those zillions of particles flying around........manufacturing a new creation.
It's utterly amazing and I'm really blown away by it.

People deny the existence of a soul for example, because science can't prove it.
Since science can't, it can't be there!!

We have no idea in what dimension we live, as a matter of fact this life could even be somekind of a sleep...
Do you know in your dream, that you are dreaming?



What's wrong with believe?
If you can think, read and say anything you want.

I'm someone who doesn't conclude anything all to soon, I just wait and observe the world and let time do the word.
Believing doesn't harm me, my life, or my knowledge or whatsoever at all, I have nothing to lose but I have everything to gain.

[LARA]

iSok wrote: So how did you see my punch coming? Because you saw my hand coming, a signal for cells within your eyes went to your brains.
Your brains activate your muscles, you move.

For this whole action, particles are needed. let's say the smallest particle is an atom.

So it wasn't your own will, because that doesn't exist here.

Ridiculous.  The atoms in my body would not spontaneously move out of the way of a punch.  They have no sense of self-preservation on their own.  Only from a whole, thinking being can there be this sort of reaction.  It's the nature of the material system to emerge into different orders and behaviors when certain criteria and tipping points are reached.

But I want you to make your own free will just an illusion, so do go on.

[iSok]

iSok wrote: So how did you see my punch coming? Because you saw my hand coming, a signal for cells within your eyes went to your brains.
Your brains activate your muscles, you move.

For this whole action, particles are needed. let's say the smallest particle is an atom.

So it wasn't your own will, because that doesn't exist here.

Ridiculous.  The atoms in my body would not spontaneously move out of the way of a punch.  They have no sense of self-preservation on their own.  Only from a whole, thinking being can there be this sort of reaction.  It's the nature of the material system to emerge into different orders and behaviors when certain criteria and tipping points are reached.

But I want you to make your own free will just an illusion, so do go on.

How do you think? Your thinkingproces is the cause of chemical reactions in your brain. Which are the cause of other events...other particles.
You as a 'being' are a result of chance by zillions of collisions, by looking at the material aspect, you don't own a free will.
Every thought you have is already pre-destined.

This message I'm typing, has already been pre-determined.....

Can you explain where your free will comes from if you think you have one?

[LegendarySandwich]

Okay, so free will doesn't exist, and is just a very convincing illusion.

So what?

[iSok]

Okay, so free will doesn't exist, and is just a very convincing illusion.

So what?

For you it will mean nothing.

[LegendarySandwich]

For you it will mean nothing.

Okay, then. Glad we could sort that out.

I'm fine with free will being a very convincing illusion.

[iSok]

Okay, then. Glad we could sort that out.

I'm fine with free will being a very convincing illusion.

You, not I

[Stevil]

The difference is, that I do not see any reason NOT to believe.

So it comes down to the age old argument of where does the burden of proof lie?
For me, the burdon of proof lies on the theorist, for you it lies on the other side of the fence.

Everywhere I look, I see organization.
Just think of those zillions of particles flying around........manufacturing a new creation.
It's utterly amazing and I'm really blown away by it.

Yes, utterly amazing. And there is an exciting and challenging search on to find the answers while minimizing assumptions.

What's wrong with believe?

I see problems when that belief is wrapped up in intolerance, persecution, rejection of health safety practices, rejection of education, rejection of equality...
If it didn't come with this baggage then I would have absolutely no problems with it.

[iSok]

So it comes down to the age old argument of where does the burden of proof lie?
For me, the burdon of proof lies on the theorist, for you it lies on the other side of the fence.

I do not reject science.... I myself will probably enrole in an academic career in the field of structural engineering.
The problem is Stevil that I can't explain it with just words, how odd it may sound...

When you see a building, you ponder about the Architect. What did he mean by that?
Why is the facade man of glass and not of brick? Does this aspect have a relation with the interior?


This is the same way I think about the Universe.
'Why did God this?'
'What is this for?'
'What does He mean by that?'
'Why would He do that?'

Some men see it as  chaos, but I see it as a clear organisation.
I constantly ponder about this, wherever I am..in the train...on the bus. I don't say 'God did this!! So I'll never know!!'
(That's what many atheists assume....that we think this way).
My friends who do not believe in God, they never think about issues like these, but my mind is constantly fixed on it.

My religion doesn't tell me how to think and what to read.
But it commands me to think and to read anything of knowledge and to ponder about creation.
For example, what does He mean with 'a second creation'? Things like this make me think.



[Say: `Travel on earth, and see how He originated the creation. Then Allah will initiate the second creation in the same manner. Certainly, Allah has power over all things] Qur’an 29:20.

Didn't Darwin do that?



About religion being intolerant or whatsoever, I completely disagree....
You read a book about women in Saudi Arabia and you concluded that it must be Islam..
While on the same time you do not realise that Saudi Arabia has a mix of tribal law and islamic law...
And that the way of Islam there practised is Wahhabism (interpretation of Islam, came forward in 1800)..while many Muslim disagree with that way....
In case you need books about the biography of Muhammad (pbuh) for example, I can recommend a few.

Without religion..people would still be intolerant.
It's not religion, but the people following it and interpretating it in the way they like it.
I follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah, do you see me being intolerant?

[LegendarySandwich]

I do not reject science.... I myself will probably enrole in an academic career in the field of structural engineering.
The problem is Stevil that I can't explain it with just words, how odd it may sound...

When you see a building, you ponder about the Architect. What did he mean by that?
Why is the facade man of glass and not of brick? Does this aspect have a relation with the interior?


This is the same way I think about the Universe.
'Why did God this?'
'What is this for?'
'What does He mean by that?'
'Why would He do that?'

Some men see it as  chaos, but I see it as a clear organization.
I constantly ponder about this, wherever I am..in the train...on the bus. I don't say 'God did this!! So I'll never know!!'
(That's what many atheists assume....that we think this way).
My friends who do not believe in God, they never think about issues like these, but my mind is constantly fixed on it.

My religion doesn't tell me how to think and what to read.
But it commands me to think and to read anything of knowledge and to ponder about creation.


[Say: `Travel on earth, and see how He originated the creation. Then Allah will initiate the second creation in the same manner. Certainly, Allah has power over all things] Qur’an 29:20.

Didn't Darwin do that?

Atheists can ponder the same type of questions, only without invoking the idea of any supernatural being(s) or entity/entities.

About religion being intolerant or whatsoever, I completely disagree....
You read a book about women in Saudi Arabia and you concluded that it must be Islam..
While on the same time you do not realise that Saudi Arabia has a mix of tribal law and islamic law...
And that the way of Islam there practised is Wahhabism (interpretation of Islam, came forward in 1800)..while many Muslim disagree with that way....
In case you need books about the biography of Muhammad (pbuh) for example, I can recommend a few.

You're missing the point. People can argue all day whether a group of people are interpreting a holy book correctly, but what it really comes down to is ideology and irrational thinking in general.

Without religion..people would still be intolerant.

Yes.

It's not religion, but the people following it and interpretating it in the way they like it.

Religion doesn't make people intolerant, but it sure doesn't help.

I follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah, do you see me being intolerant?

You are what the majority of people would call a "moderate Muslim".