Happy Atheist Forum

Yay! It's Windows 10s birthday so we all get gifted,,, stuff.
A bit more than 4GB for 64 bit a bit less for 32.

The Start menu's gone to crap, what the fuck are they thinking?
gpedit might not, doesn't seem to be preventing auto update.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fkr3mQCx.jpg&hash=97ecfd11c4d9900ccfba6bbdc3d1b7f5e4be0190)

The Microshit has not hit my W10 tablet yet, if the ico s get smaller on that 10" screen it will be close to unusuable.

Well, not actually a lot of use as it is.

Agreed. Start menu is fucked. I haven't had a chance to dig into it too deep yet though.
Mine decided to update to Windows 10 on its own, I have limited internet data being that I live in the boonies so who knows how much that's gonna cost me.

If you didn't mind the Win7 start menu, try out Classic Shell (http://www.classicshell.net/).

Quote from: Davin on August 09, 2016, 04:30:21 PM
If you didn't mind the Win7 start menu, try out Classic Shell (http://www.classicshell.net/).

Might try that on tbe tablet, thanks, Davin.

The version on my laptop can be configured to look znd work like the classic desktop. On the tablet took ages to find out how to lose the horrible Metro desktop (no decent manual found so far). Now I have got there cannot find how to place the icons where I want them.

Its another giant step backwards for Microsoftkind.

Ok, even Mictishit fon't get it all wrong, some (Microshit) apps do work faster.

I miss the happy days of that most efficient and stable of platforms - Windows NT.

I've been watching and learning as the intrepid folks who accepted the Windows 10 update forge ahead. By the time my Win7 machine gives up, either there will be yet another version, or I hope to at least be able to make the transition to 10 fairly smoothly. I've also been trying to learn about various Linux options. Carry on, I'm behind you all the way.

Quote from: Recusant on August 09, 2016, 05:14:05 PM
I've been watching and learning as the intrepid folks who accepted the Windows 10 update flounder ahead. By the time my Win7 machine gives up, either there will be yet another version, or I hope to at least be able to make the transition to 10 fairly smoothly. I've also been trying to learn about various Linux options. Carry on, I'm behind you all the way.

:fixed:

Quote from: Recusant on August 09, 2016, 05:14:05 PM
I've been watching and learning as the intrepid folks who accepted the Windows 10 update forge ahead. By the time my Win7 machine gives up, either there will be yet another version, or I hope to at least be able to make the transition to 10 fairly smoothly. I've also been trying to learn about various Linux options. Carry on, I'm behind you all the way.

Practically everyone I know who try Linux end up hating Windows.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fzibasaz.net%2Fyahoo2%2F30.gif&hash=b7a4c6ced95e3679803e4bdcc09b03debe82c198)

I haven't gotten that Win 10 update yet. I'm afraid.  :sadnod:

I disagree with Microsoft's decision that the customer is always right and therefore deserves a start button to begin with. There is a Windows-key on every modern keyboard (Yes, even the Apple ones, although it's a different key)

That being said, I approve of pretty much everything else with Win 10, but mine is also styled nicely by myself to suit my own needs. (No additional plug-ins or the like. Just the built-in functionality)

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2016, 10:20:09 PM
I haven't gotten that Win 10 update yet. I'm afraid.  :sadnod:

It was only a little shaky at first, probably their best OS launch ever, and now it's all good. This is the first time I've found the Windows OS to be faster than it's predecessor (in spite of them always saying it is). It runs better on the same computer than Win 7 or Win 8 did. I've upgraded several computers now and it's been very painless. Took only a few hours.

I still like KDE way more than the Win 10 interface, but as far as Windows goes, Win 10 is my favorite Windows version.

Praise be! A sensible IT user!  ;D

Yeah, I updated my laptop, but didn't upgrade my desktop yet. So far on my laptop it's been painless. So far. :grin:

Quote from: Steeler on August 09, 2016, 04:27:51 PM
Mine decided to update to Windows 10 on its own, I have limited internet data being that I live in the boonies so who knows how much that's gonna cost me.

I have limited data allowance at home and five Win 10 computers. 
If you have access to internet at work or elsewhere you can download the iso file, create an install disk and install it on all computers in your house, though if you have a mix of 32 and 64 bit systems you'll need both.
This link seems to work.
http://windowsiso.net/windows-10-iso/windows-10-anniversary-update-1607-download-build-14393-0/windows-10-anniversary-update-1607-iso-download-standard/

There are still ISPs who limit traffic out there..? Or are you on one of them wireless links?

Quote from: Asmodean on August 11, 2016, 10:49:19 AM
There are still ISPs who limit traffic out there..? Or are you on one of them wireless links?

There was and is no broadband available on the copper land line that comes to my house, I cancelled the phone service a few years back.

In 2007 a Labor government was elected with a grand plan for a national broadband network, fibre to the home for most, some satellite and fixed wireless the likes of me probably. 

Still waiting, good times are coming though.

So it's a tethered mobile phone, or create a wireless hotspot, then you can set it as metered connection.
$17.33 a month for enough phone and 3.33GB of data, I can live with that but I don't like MS having free reign with it.  There was a 900mb update about a month ago, with the anniversary release so close, I didn't appreciate that.

Windows 10 has taken control out of the hands of the users, especially for home edition folk.  I don't like that.

Quote from: Asmodean on August 10, 2016, 02:05:26 PM
I disagree with Microsoft's decision that the customer is always right and therefore deserves a start button to begin with. There is a Windows-key on every modern keyboard (Yes, even the Apple ones, although it's a different key)

I didn't like their decision to disregard customer preference and force a UI change (Win8) that was in my opinion ugly and inefficient. 
There are a range of different customers, some may spend 16 hours a day taping away others may only use it an hour a week.  Do the light users deserve to be disregarded?  They may have taken a course to learn how to use the new fangled things.  They know where the things they use are but then a decision is made to radically change the interface.
I didn't like the reasons for the change or the result. 

I can live with Win 10, takes taming but that's always been the way.  Those tiles, I'd kill them all if I had my way.
There's the guides to using Powershell to get rid of apps like xbox.
The start menu of the Anniversary edition is annoying though, now I see a list of apps I have no use for, what was wrong with leaving it hidden and having it available by using the all apps button?

Quote from: Asmodean on August 10, 2016, 02:05:26 PM
That being said, I approve of pretty much everything else with Win 10, but mine is also styled nicely by myself to suit my own needs. (No additional plug-ins or the like. Just the built-in functionality)

That seems an odd attitude to me, I've heard you say it before.  I don't  see any virtue in this minimalist shunning of 3rd party software.  There are much better free software options available than what Windows comes with.

Quote from: Asmodean on August 11, 2016, 10:49:19 AM
There are still ISPs who limit traffic out there..? Or are you on one of them wireless links?

Yes, it's been a big fight with people who like an open competitive internet with the support of the FCC (Federal Communications Commission), to get ISPs to stop trying to hurt start up companies and make the internet cost more for no reason other than they want to make more money for absolutely nothing. Not only are many ISPs holding back faster internet, but they are also capping and slowing down traffic. It's now several times a year that ISPs are trying to push in legislation that will give them the power to make the internet and bogged down, expensive thing to use. And it's for no reason.

And worse, companies like Comcast have in many cities and states received millions of dollars of tax payers money to increase internet speeds, and instead of doing that, they got state and city governments to change the definition of "broadband" down to a paltry 5 Mb/s. Of course most people don't understand how the internet works, and it's not easy to understand, so they get to say pretty much any bullshit and lots of people will believe them.

On top of the knowledge of how networks and the internet work, for the layman, just take a look at what happens whenever google fiber shows up. The ISPs who have been serving up "high speed" internet at 30-50 Mb/s, can finally serve it up at 500-1000 Mb/s. Like magic, but more likely assholes. I'm fine with people trying to make a profit, but when a company takes public money, they need to be serving the public. Of course they can't seem to get the price down as far as google fiber, because...? Whatever, that's my rant about internet neutrality.

What Davin said, at least in the US. In response to that, some municipalities and towns have set up their own broadband services which were faster and cheaper. So the big ISP's pressured some states to pass laws either forbidding towns from setting up their own broadband or forbidding its further expansion because they didn't want the competition. The FCC tried to ban those laws, but a federal court just ruled that the FCC can't do that. Will probably get appealed, but it's been a constant battle to keep the  principle of net neutrality alive.

I wish I had better times ahead as far as data goes. I'm paying 80 a month for 10 gigs of data on my home computer.
That is with Verizon, pretty much my only option. I could do satellite, but it's priced about the same and slower, from what I've read. No cable service, no dsl. Cable company has service 5 miles away but they told me they have no plans to expand in my direction due to lack of enough homes this way. Phone company says no dsl coming my way either.
Verizon is the only reliable network where I live, so I'm just screwed, and it sucks.

Quote from: Steeler on August 12, 2016, 03:13:48 AM
I wish I had better times ahead as far as data goes. I'm paying 80 a month for 10 gigs of data on my home computer.
That is with Verizon, pretty much my only option. I could do satellite, but it's priced about the same and slower, from what I've read. No cable service, no dsl. Cable company has service 5 miles away but they told me they have no plans to expand in my direction due to lack of enough homes this way. Phone company says no dsl coming my way either.
Verizon is the only reliable network where I live, so I'm just screwed, and it sucks.

After rearing the posts on this I am never going to complain about my service again!

I have 50Mb/s if I use the cable rather than wifi (20Mb/s on the tablet and phone on wifi), no limit on either direction, unmetered UK landline calls less than 60 minutes duration.

All for less than £40/month. And I could save a little by changing to another ISP. There are currently about 20 ISPs available in this area.

Quote from: Bad Penny II on August 11, 2016, 01:36:26 PM
That seems an odd attitude to me, I've heard you say it before.  I don't  see any virtue in this minimalist shunning of 3rd party software.  There are much better free software options available than what Windows comes with.

I did speak about it before, but let me sum up my views on the case;

1. Windows 10 as an OS
Yes, the upgrade might seem the biggest to regular users since the first generation of Windows replaced DOS. People learned to live with it. They will learn to live with increased use of touch screen and the following touch screen friendliness of software. At work, we are upgrading to Win10 in May. Those of my colleagues who have not yet been exposed to it (as well as everyone else) can then count on a small army of IT consultants ready to respond to their queries and teach them what they need to learn about the OS. If a work place does not do it that way, then frankly, their IT deprartment is not very well managed.

When it comes to home users, learn as you go is a fair approach. Windows 10 is not radically different from 7 in the way it's used. The earlier versions of 8 had a few excentricities, but 10... Doesn't. Not really. So there is no start menu in a classical sense. So what? The same functionality is still there and still available at a click of the Windows-key, in the same way the start menu was. So they replaced "All programs" with an app list feature. Well, good. The start screen is also much easier to tailor to your own use and preferences than the start menu was.

Windows explorer and the like are still pretty much the same.

I see you call the UI changes radical, but they really are not. It's changing your dashboard with a cassette player and a heater knob into one with a big tablet in the middle that does pretty much everything and has a cell phone dock. You still get an accelerator pedal, a steering wheel and window wipers.

For the purpose of this response, I'm not going into the underlying technical stuff, simply because it's not really all that relevant to me as a user, regardless of how good I find it as an IT professional.

2. Minimalist attitudes, bloatware and other concerns.
This one is quite personal, and personally, I disagree that the free options available out there are better than the built-in functionality in Windows. I mean, yes, of course GIMP is better than Microsoft Paint for most uses. (it's not exactly free for any sort of commercial use, if memory serves, but that's not the issue) In what way, however, is Google Chrome better than Microsoft Edge? In what way is a third party calculator better than the OS-bundled one? Same questions for various e-mail applications, compression tools and the like.

Yes, there are circumstances where you may need functions certain applications do not provide, but Microsoft does offer a nicely balanced package that satisfies most basic functionality related needs in home and corporate use.

QuoteWindows (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10) 10 is a personal computer operating system developed and released by Microsoft as part of the Windows NT family of operating systems..

And NT was the pinnacle (IMHO) of the Windows system.

Yes, there are apps now, not always a good thing and the selection for Windows has a long way to go. Personally I try to run it as close to 7/8 as I can on the laptop.

On my tablet it is lousy. Not sure if it is Windows or the tablet but the touch point is about 2-3mm above right of the icon/hypertext, can take several stabs with a stylus to hit the right place.  The icons are not much larger than that in the task bar. And if there is a "tight" list of links getting the right one means expanding the image to max. If you can do so.

Keep looking for a screen calibration app but not found one so far.

I may be able to assist with your calibration issues. What manner of tab is this?

It's a Linx 1010B

Have now found an upgraded driver from the manufacturer but have not road tested it yet.

Any advice very welcome.

Needs a bit of education for website designers. Crowded lists of links, like that near the "Hello" bit top left, are a psin, need a 2mm stylus, but thats too small for capacitive systems. Just glad the "show unread..." link is at tbe top! I use that a lot, wish it was a decent icon.

Hmm... Yes. I've been playing with the idea of having an m.happyatheistforum.com mobile-domain since it would be a lot of work to restyle SMF to self-adjusting mobile friendliness.

When it comes to calibration, those settings are in a file called touchsettings.gt; I would not recommend changing them yourself without a fair understanding of what's going on [Basically, it's a binary matrix], so we shan't delve into it unless we must.

Yes, I recommend downloading and installing the latest driver. If the problem persists, run the bundled screen calibration tool. It is not very difficult and I will walk you through it if the driver fails to properly address the problem.  ;)

Quote from: Asmodean on August 12, 2016, 01:25:06 PM
Hmm... Yes. I've been playing with the idea of having an m.happyatheistforum.com mobile-domain since it would be a lot of work to restyle SMF to self-adjusting mobile friendliness.

When it comes to calibration, those settings are in a file called touchsettings.gt; I would not recommend changing them yourself without a fair understanding of what's going on, so we shan't delve into it unless we must.

Yes, I recommend downloading and installing the latest driver. If the problem persists, run the bundled screen calibration tool. It is not very difficult and I will walk you through it if the driver fails to properly address the problem.  ;)

Now what "bundled calibration tool"? That was what I have looked for! On my old non-smart phone you bad to tiuch five points on the screen, corners and centre, to calibrate. You could use a sharp plastic stylus on that screen, can't get the location accyracy with a finger or stylus. On this Samsung the pen gives a 1.5mm accuracy.

Perhaps W10 is getting like Android, just because you have Jelly-baby 99.9 on your Panasung Slab 3 does not mean it is identical to the Jelly-baby 99.9 on your friend's Samsonic Tile 4 in every detail. And nothing at all like that on the  Mississippi Windle.

Slightly different implimentations for each manufacturer above the basic common core.

You should have a "Calibrate" button under Display Settings in Tablet PC Settings in Control Panel.

Basically,

Control Panel (Icons) ->
Tablet PC Settings ->
Display ->
Calibrate

I need one of my home computers if I'm to explain with pics or video, so words are the best I can do for now.

Thanks oh humungus Grey One.

Not so easy to navigate on 10, slight changes in terminlogy get confudion but I got there in the end and it does seem more responsive.

Did not notice owt like that when I searched.

Ta ever so.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2016, 10:13:01 PMPractically everyone I know who try Linux end up hating Windows.

I think that kind of thing depends on your social circle ... my friends are pretty much the opposite (IT engineers all of us, Windows users and a bit "meh" about Linux).

I tried Linux, long time ago, for six months and eventually ran back to Windows because I wanted to actually do things.

I still occasionally try various Linux distros and it always ends up the same ... I install it, I look at it for a while thinking "that's pretty", maybe even play a few games but eventually I shut it down and get on with the things I need to do. Guess I'm just a Windows guy and yes, I really quite like Win 10 :)

That said I think I have to learn some of it since I just got made redundant so I'm back on the training again ... bah humbug :)

Keke

Quote from: Gloucester on August 12, 2016, 11:15:13 AMAnd NT was the pinnacle (IMHO) of the Windows system.

Ugh! I did my MCSE in that, it was tough going them it's even worse now. That said, in interface terms, I absolutely hate 2012.

Keke

W10 came with my new laptop.  I agree that the start menu is a mess, but the rest is mainly very good.  It seems to be faster then W7, although it's hard to know how much of that is down to the new machine.  I'm happy with it, anyhow.

I'm still on Windows 7, OS X Mavericks and Linux Mint 16. All three OSes have their Pros and Cons. Tried Windows 8 once for a few weeks and I hated it. Windows 10 seems to be a bit better, but for the moment I don't have any use for it.

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 22, 2016, 09:56:37 PM

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2016, 10:13:01 PMPractically everyone I know who try Linux end up hating Windows.

I think that kind of thing depends on your social circle ... my friends are pretty much the opposite (IT engineers all of us, Windows users and a bit "meh" about Linux).

I tried Linux, long time ago, for six months and eventually ran back to Windows because I wanted to actually do things.

That's odd that you weren't able to do things. I am able to do everything in Linux that I can in Windows. Many things are nicer in Linux, a few things are not as good as windows, but overall, it's better. I don't hate Windows, I have to use it for my current job, but I could do all the same things in Linux that I do for work and that includes the C# development, though I would still have to test on Windows machines since that is the target platform for the company.

Recently I had to make a feed for a camera available to remote computer, and I made one real quick in Linux which was way easier than when I had to make it again a day later when they told me it had to run on a Windows machine.

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 22, 2016, 09:56:37 PM

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2016, 10:13:01 PMPractically everyone I know who try Linux end up hating Windows.

I think that kind of thing depends on your social circle ... my friends are pretty much the opposite (IT engineers all of us, Windows users and a bit "meh" about Linux).

I tried Linux, long time ago, for six months and eventually ran back to Windows because I wanted to actually do things.

I still occasionally try various Linux distros and it always ends up the same ... I install it, I look at it for a while thinking "that's pretty", maybe even play a few games but eventually I shut it down and get on with the things I need to do. Guess I'm just a Windows guy and yes, I really quite like Win 10 :)

+1 to all of the above.

Quote from: Davin on August 23, 2016, 05:05:55 PMThat's odd that you weren't able to do things. I am able to do everything in Linux that I can in Windows. Many things are nicer in Linux, a few things are not as good as windows, but overall, it's better. I don't hate Windows, I have to use it for my current job, but I could do all the same things in Linux that I do for work and that includes the C# development, though I would still have to test on Windows machines since that is the target platform for the company.

Depends what you want to do and how you want to do it. Windows is far better for the things I want to do and much easier to do it. [Shrug] Job done IMO.

Quote from: Davin on August 23, 2016, 05:05:55 PMRecently I had to make a feed for a camera available to remote computer, and I made one real quick in Linux which was way easier than when I had to make it again a day later when they told me it had to run on a Windows machine.

For you I'm sure, for me I have few doubts I would find it easier with Windows.

None of this means I deny that Linux is or can be a good OS, it's simply not for me. Windows is easier and better IMO.

Keke

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 23, 2016, 08:58:54 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 23, 2016, 05:05:55 PMThat's odd that you weren't able to do things. I am able to do everything in Linux that I can in Windows. Many things are nicer in Linux, a few things are not as good as windows, but overall, it's better. I don't hate Windows, I have to use it for my current job, but I could do all the same things in Linux that I do for work and that includes the C# development, though I would still have to test on Windows machines since that is the target platform for the company.

Depends what you want to do and how you want to do it. Windows is far better for the things I want to do and much easier to do it. [Shrug] Job done IMO.

That doesn't make sense, I haven't found anything I cannot easily do in Linux that I can do in Windows. But things like building an OS, GUI, and applications optimized for my hardware is much easier to do in Linux (Gentoo is awesome), which is something you can't do at all in Windows. I mean, Blender is nice in Windows, but an optimized Blender in Linux is so much better. Locking down my system is much easier to do in Linux than in Windows. For regular things like web browsing, document writing, 3D modeling/texturing/rigging/animating, drawing, video editing, programming, etc... everything is the same as in Windows and most of the apps I use on either side are available or easy enough to make available on Linux. For others, I can use a replacement application. While multiple desktops can be done in Windows, it's more difficult to set up and it's not as well done as in Linux. Doing admin things is also much easier in Linux.

But now I'm curious in what contexts are things easier to do for you than in Windows than in Linux. And what specifically is far better and easier to do in Windows than in Linux.

Quote from: Kekerusey

Quote from: Davin on August 23, 2016, 05:05:55 PMRecently I had to make a feed for a camera available to remote computer, and I made one real quick in Linux which was way easier than when I had to make it again a day later when they told me it had to run on a Windows machine.

For you I'm sure, for me I have few doubts I would find it easier with Windows.

None of this means I deny that Linux is or can be a good OS, it's simply not for me. Windows is easier and better IMO.

I suppose experience and knowledge do play a large part. But one thing is pretty significant difference, the control I get over the camera in Windows is about 75% of the control I get over the camera in Linux. Windows does fine when it comes to basic operations, and Linux does take a little more getting used to the basic operations, but once you want/need to do advanced things, Windows becomes more cumbersome and Linux becomes easier. The more advanced and/or complicated a task is, the easier Linux is over Windows. Don't get me wrong, I can find ways to do the same things in Windows, it's just takes a lot more work and a lot more experience with Windows, while in Linux, I can pretty much just do what I want and not worry about the OS doing stupid things.

Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2016, 03:13:39 PMThat doesn't make sense, I haven't found anything I cannot easily do in Linux that I can do in Windows.

That's the point I'm making ... YOU haven't. I'm not you. My friends are not you. Businesses that I work for use Windows primarily as their desktop and, largely, servers ... they're not you either. Linux may be easy for you but it is not that easy for many others ... this really isn't rocket science.

As far as I am concerned, pretty much everything that I run under windows works better than stuff under Linux, I vastly prefer the Windows interface, I like the fact that virtually everything has a relatively common user interface and I vastly prefer Microsoft Office over any other word processing suite out there.

Don't get me wrong, I use a lot of open source stuff and (as already said) I have mucked about with many distros of Linux. I just don't like it, you do ... it's that simple. But when I do play about with Linux I almost always select KDE because it's more Windows-like.

Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2016, 03:13:39 PMI suppose experience and knowledge do play a large part. But one thing is pretty significant difference, the control I get over the camera in Windows is about 75% of the control I get over the camera in Linux. Windows does fine when it comes to basic operations, and Linux does take a little more getting used to the basic operations, but once you want/need to do advanced things, Windows becomes more cumbersome and Linux becomes easier. The more advanced and/or complicated a task is, the easier Linux is over Windows. Don't get me wrong, I can find ways to do the same things in Windows, it's just takes a lot more work and a lot more experience with Windows, while in Linux, I can pretty much just do what I want and not worry about the OS doing stupid things.

All of which is fine ... for you, not me. I prefer the experience and the control I get from Windows. As far as I'm concerned Windows just works, works on the latest hardware with the fastest drivers that make full use of the hardware they are written for. Linux drivers may well be easy to write but my experience of them suggests they are mostly generic which further suggests they do not use the full capabilities of the hardware they have been written for. OTOH every manufacturer pretty much writes drivers for their hardware to run under Windows and, especially with gaming hardware, do so with the aim of providing the user with the fastest possible bang per buck, it's in their interest to do so since it means users will come back and buy the next iteration.

Yes, Windows has faults but only a numpty would claim that's not true for Linux ... ultimately I'm fine with Windows, warts 'n all, because it's what I like, it's what prefer and it's what I work with.

Unfortunately, having just been made redundant (thx Brexiteers), I now have to learn more Linux ... and I had so hoped to carry on cruising to retirement. Ah well!

Keke

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 24, 2016, 03:40:28 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2016, 03:13:39 PMThat doesn't make sense, I haven't found anything I cannot easily do in Linux that I can do in Windows.

That's the point I'm making ... YOU haven't. I'm not you. My friends are not you. Businesses that I work for use Windows primarily as their desktop and, largely, servers ... they're not you either. Linux may be easy for you but it is not that easy for many others ... this really isn't rocket science.

What is the purpose of these statements? They seem entirely useless to me.

Quote from: KekeruseyAs far as I am concerned, pretty much everything that I run under windows works better than stuff under Linux, I vastly prefer the Windows interface, I like the fact that virtually everything has a relatively common user interface and I vastly prefer Microsoft Office over any other word processing suite out there.

I was just interested in examples. I gave some examples to clarify my position to show that I'm not just saying things out of ignorance. I was just hoping for the same, I was hoping for something useful and interesting.

Quote from: KekeruseyDon't get me wrong, I use a lot of open source stuff and (as already said) I have mucked about with many distros of Linux. I just don't like it, you do ... it's that simple. But when I do play about with Linux I almost always select KDE because it's more Windows-like.

It's fine to have preferences, but I thought it would be fine to discuss those preferences. Also, some of your statements imply objective rather than subjective qualities.

Quote from: Kekerusey

Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2016, 03:13:39 PMI suppose experience and knowledge do play a large part. But one thing is pretty significant difference, the control I get over the camera in Windows is about 75% of the control I get over the camera in Linux. Windows does fine when it comes to basic operations, and Linux does take a little more getting used to the basic operations, but once you want/need to do advanced things, Windows becomes more cumbersome and Linux becomes easier. The more advanced and/or complicated a task is, the easier Linux is over Windows. Don't get me wrong, I can find ways to do the same things in Windows, it's just takes a lot more work and a lot more experience with Windows, while in Linux, I can pretty much just do what I want and not worry about the OS doing stupid things.

All of which is fine ... for you, not me. I prefer the experience and the control I get from Windows. As far as I'm concerned Windows just works, works on the latest hardware with the fastest drivers that make full use of the hardware they are written for. Linux drivers may well be easy to write but my experience of them suggests they are mostly generic which further suggests they do not use the full capabilities of the hardware they have been written for. OTOH every manufacturer pretty much writes drivers for their hardware to run under Windows and, especially with gaming hardware, do so with the aim of providing the user with the fastest possible bang per buck, it's in their interest to do so since it means users will come back and buy the next iteration.

This is a fine bit of reasoning to make when one lacks the knowledge and experience of how things really work, so I don't really fault you for that. I just caution you against spreading it around like that because it's misinformation. For example with the camera thing I developed recently, controlling the frame rate is not as free form in Windows as it is in Linux, because the Windows drivers no longer allow setting the frame rate, I had to do some extra programming to attain the same effect in Windows. You know, as a specific example instead of a generic blanket statement of where Linux offers more control than Windows does.

Of course for most devices, there is more and less hindered control under Linux, but there are some examples where that is not true. However, I find that overall, the performance is better under my Linux system than when I boot it up under Windows. If compare the frame rates between the same games running on Linux and Windows on the same system with the same settings, Linux overall wins by 10-20 FPS (not much, but Linux is objectively better), but there are a few games that run better under Windows.

Quote from: KekeruseyYes, Windows has faults but only a numpty would claim that's not true for Linux ... ultimately I'm fine with Windows, warts 'n all, because it's what I like, it's what prefer and it's what I work with.

I don't get the reason for these statements.

Quote from: KekeruseyUnfortunately, having just been made redundant (thx Brexiteers), I now have to learn more Linux ... and I had so hoped to carry on cruising to retirement. Ah well.

Don't worry about it, it's very easy. What I find is, that the better, more knowledgeable developers start liking Linux more than any other OS when they start using it. Though I think it should go without saying that there are exceptions. My boss, for one example, is a great developer but he doesn't like Linux more than Windows.

The Great Asmo is also a corporate whore.  :smilenod:

I hope that this thread doesn't turn into OS Wars (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fun:OS_Wars)  ;).
If that should happen then I'll try to remain neutral.

Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2016, 05:27:06 PMWhatever ...

I give up, you win!

Linux is the best operating system ever devised by man, beast or demon (probably by God) and the fact that many, many people (many of them highly technical individuals like me) CHOOSE to use Windows in preference is an irrational and inexplicable blip on the curved surface of time and space :)

Keke

Quote from: Tom62 on August 24, 2016, 05:59:12 PM
I hope that this thread doesn't turn into OS Wars (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fun:OS_Wars)  ;).
If that should happen then I'll try to remain neutral.

OpenBSD or bust!
/s

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 24, 2016, 06:17:50 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2016, 05:27:06 PMWhatever ...

I give up, you win!

Linux is the best operating system ever devised by man, beast or deman (probably by God) and the fact that many, many people (many of them highly technical individuals like me) CHOOSE to use Windows in preference is an irrational and inexplicable blip on the curved surface of time and space :)

I don't understand this at all, what is it in response to?

Linux is an operating system that is as good as Windows and OS X. You won't find me saying that one is better or worse than the others (except in jest or when talking about Windows ME). But when a person seriously says that one is better than another (like you did many times), then I'm interested to understand why that is. If you don't want to provide any useful examples (like I did to support why I think Linux is as good as other operating systems), then that is your choice and I have no issue with that.

Many highly technical people choose Windows, yes, and I doubt they are irrational or stupid. However, many highly technical people choose OS X as well as Linux, so it's not a useful point.

Since I gained nothing useful from the conversation, I do not win anything.

The Asmo is almost powerless to resist joining in at this point.  :argue:

Quote from: Asmodean on August 24, 2016, 09:33:46 PM
The Asmo is almost powerless to resist joining in at this point.  :argue:

Please provide us with your inputs, oh Grey One!

Ok. I'll try to do a slightly more comprehensive version after work, but to start off, the main thing which I can do in Windows but not in Linux (And we are talking corporate level here) is have  Norwegian team Microsoft behind me when things start going wrong, this is especially relevant for licensing-related issues, sharepoint development and the like. They have excellent consultants and me, I appreciate not having to tell my resources how to do their job.

Things have also been running a lot more smoothly since we migrated from Linux servers to Windows where applicable. We still have a server or two running other operating systems, but... well, those are my least favourite servers, mostly by virtue of crappy service agreements and worse service reps.

Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2016, 08:39:32 PMI don't understand this at all, what is it in response to?

Have you not heard of sarcasm?

Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2016, 08:39:32 PMLinux is an operating system that is as good as Windows and OS X. You won't find me saying that one is better or worse than the others (except in jest or when talking about Windows ME). But when a person seriously says that one is better than another (like you did many times), then I'm interested to understand why that is. If you don't want to provide any useful examples (like I did to support why I think Linux is as good as other operating systems), then that is your choice and I have no issue with that.

I have checked and I think you'll find I never once said Windows was definitively better. I said things like "in my opinion" and "as far as I am concerned" ... the sort of things that CLEARLY imply (if not directly state) that I was speaking from a personal point of view.

If you believe I am wrong please feel free to point to any statement I have made in this thread that, in context, shows me stating that Windows IS definitively better than Linux.

Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2016, 08:39:32 PMMany highly technical people choose Windows, yes, and I doubt they are irrational or stupid. However, many highly technical people choose OS X as well as Linux, so it's not a useful point.

Quite true but I'd be willing to be that more technical people use Windows. That may be because they have no choice but I'd wager it has more to do with other factors such as gaming (there is still a hefty PC gaming community out there)

Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2016, 08:39:32 PMSince I gained nothing useful from the conversation, I do not win anything.

Do they not have sarcasm in the US?

Keke

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 25, 2016, 10:31:39 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2016, 08:39:32 PMI don't understand this at all, what is it in response to?

Have you not heard of sarcasm?

Yep. I would think that even sarcasm as a response would at least addresses something I said. I cannot see how, even with the sarcasm apology, what your statements there have to do with what I said.

Quote from: Kekerusey

Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2016, 08:39:32 PMLinux is an operating system that is as good as Windows and OS X. You won't find me saying that one is better or worse than the others (except in jest or when talking about Windows ME). But when a person seriously says that one is better than another (like you did many times), then I'm interested to understand why that is. If you don't want to provide any useful examples (like I did to support why I think Linux is as good as other operating systems), then that is your choice and I have no issue with that.

I have checked and I think you'll find I never once said Windows was definitively better. I said things like "in my opinion" and "as far as I am concerned" ... the sort of things that CLEARLY imply (if not directly state) that I was speaking from a personal point of view.

If you believe I am wrong please feel free to point to any statement I have made in this thread that, in context, shows me stating that Windows IS definitively better than Linux.

Sure, here are a few:

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 23, 2016, 08:58:54 PMWindows is far better for the things I want to do and much easier to do it.

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 24, 2016, 03:40:28 PMAs far as I am concerned, pretty much everything that I run under windows works better than stuff under Linux[...]

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 24, 2016, 03:40:28 PMAs far as I'm concerned Windows just works, works on the latest hardware with the fastest drivers that make full use of the hardware they are written for.

Now, I don't really hold what you said with too much weight, even I have missed a few words that makes it look I meant something more concrete than what I meant. And to be honest, I didn't want to argue, this conversation has been entirely boring and useless. What I wanted, was to know the questions that I asked. I want to know what things you can't do in Linux that you can do in Windows. I wanted to know why you think that Windows is better than Linux even only on a subjective level. I wanted to know specifically what issues you had with Linux, since you tried it out so much and said that you prefer Windows, I would have thought that you could just, you know, say why you say that. But you don't seem capable of saying why you prefer one over the other, and that's fine too, you don't owe anyone anything. You could just say that you don't know why you like Windows over Linux, you just do. That is a good enough answer. But you kept on without saying much at all and nothing beyond vague statements and inaccurate blanket statements.

Quote from: Kekerusey

Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2016, 08:39:32 PMMany highly technical people choose Windows, yes, and I doubt they are irrational or stupid. However, many highly technical people choose OS X as well as Linux, so it's not a useful point.

Quite true but I'd be willing to be that more technical people use Windows. That may be because they have no choice but I'd wager it has more to do with other factors such as gaming (there is still a hefty PC gaming community out there)

Yeah, I am aware of the PC gaming community, I game under Linux all the time. I suspect that people choosing Windows over Linux has less to do with the quality of the OS and more to do with them just not making a choice. If you're only point here is to appeal to majority, then I don't really care about that. But if you're implying that there must be a reason why, then just come the fuck out with it already.

Quote from: Kekerusey

Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2016, 08:39:32 PMSince I gained nothing useful from the conversation, I do not win anything.

Do they not have sarcasm in the US?

Yes we do, is "sarcasm" going to be your go to excuse when you don't make any sense and/or just make shit up out of no where?

Quote from: Asmodean on August 25, 2016, 11:13:58 AM
Ok. I'll try to do a slightly more comprehensive version after work, but to start off, the main thing which I can do in Windows but not in Linux (And we are talking corporate level here) is have  Norwegian team Microsoft behind me when things start going wrong, this is especially relevant for licensing-related issues, sharepoint development and the like. They have excellent consultants and me, I appreciate not having to tell my resources how to do their job.

Things have also been running a lot more smoothly since we migrated from Linux servers to Windows where applicable. We still have a server or two running other operating systems, but... well, those are my least favourite servers, mostly by virtue of crappy service agreements and worse service reps.

I just run my own servers or at work, we run our own servers.

A few years ago I had a problem that even the Windows Support guys couldn't fix. We wanted a cross login to work off of a security cookie. I followed all the documentation to get it to work, and it did on everything except the production servers. And it failed in a massive way, it just locked up the server so that nothing else would work. So I looked into it to make sure I didn't do anything wrong, I couldn't find anything. So I requested calling in Windows Support. We spent months going over it over an over and found no solid solution to the problem. They suggested reinstalling the OS on the servers with no guarantee that it would work after that. Ended up scrapping it for now, hoping it will be resolved by moving our servers to Azure. But that is the only problem we've had here that we couldn't solve. And Windows Support is mostly really good the few times we've needed them.

The kind of company I work for... Well, we keep own servers to a minimum. Bad investment for us to buy and maintain them.

Quote from: Asmodean on August 26, 2016, 04:12:16 PM
The kind of company I work for... Well, we keep own servers to a minimum. Bad investment for us to buy and maintain them.

What are you using then, a cloud service like AWS?

Quote from: Davin on August 26, 2016, 03:18:38 PMSure, here are a few:

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 23, 2016, 08:58:54 PMWindows is far better for the things I want to do and much easier to do it.

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 24, 2016, 03:40:28 PMAs far as I am concerned, pretty much everything that I run under windows works better than stuff under Linux[...]

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 24, 2016, 03:40:28 PMAs far as I'm concerned Windows just works, works on the latest hardware with the fastest drivers that make full use of the hardware they are written for.

And all are quite clearly personal opinion so all you managed to do was prove your own error. The last one I will go further on because the drivers are written [usually for windows] by the people who built the hardware so, in my opinion, the chances of some guy "in a garage" (sic) writing a better driver are highly unlikely. I believe linux support for newer hardware can be flaky, something borne out by my own experience seeking support for recent hardware in linux support forums.

Anyway, thank you for your time and effort. I think it a shame you didn't approach this more constructively as I am very much the kind of person who will listen to reason but instead you managed to fulfil my every expectation and now I have you tagged as just another Linux evangelist.

And, on that note, I think we're done :)

Keke

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sherv.net%2Fcm%2Femoticons%2Fdrink%2Fpopcorn-and-drink-smiley-emoticon.gif&hash=01e3cfce6eb4f35985f83c4232bbd80a300b04e4)



:secrets1: Keke, I'm not 100% sure, but I have a feeling that this is not over yet. Davin will be back...Monday.

Quote from: Firebird on August 26, 2016, 06:22:38 PM

Quote from: Asmodean on August 26, 2016, 04:12:16 PM
The kind of company I work for... Well, we keep own servers to a minimum. Bad investment for us to buy and maintain them.

What are you using then, a cloud service like AWS?

Soon. For now, we buy capacity as a service from our industrial IT partner.

The unstoppable force meets the immovable object. One can just smell the futility in the air. :popcorn:

That, or massive explosions.

Quote from: Magdalena on August 26, 2016, 10:47:05 PMKeke, I'm not 100% sure, but I have a feeling that this is not over yet. Davin will be back...Monday.

Yeah, but I don't have to respond ... that means it's a question of whether I can stop myself. Good luck with that me!

Keke

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 28, 2016, 08:43:04 AM

Quote from: Magdalena on August 26, 2016, 10:47:05 PMKeke, I'm not 100% sure, but I have a feeling that this is not over yet. Davin will be back...Monday.

Yeah, but I don't have to respond ... that means it's a question of whether I can stop myself. Good luck with that me!

Keke

He likes to argue, and always must win said argument. But of course that is just my opinion.

Quote from: Steeler on August 28, 2016, 10:12:25 PM

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 28, 2016, 08:43:04 AM

Quote from: Magdalena on August 26, 2016, 10:47:05 PMKeke, I'm not 100% sure, but I have a feeling that this is not over yet. Davin will be back...Monday.

Yeah, but I don't have to respond ... that means it's a question of whether I can stop myself. Good luck with that me!

Keke

He likes to argue, and always must win said argument. But of course that is just my opinion.

Yes, I've always admired Davin's tenacity.  :tellmemore:

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 26, 2016, 10:03:32 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 26, 2016, 03:18:38 PMSure, here are a few:

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 23, 2016, 08:58:54 PMWindows is far better for the things I want to do and much easier to do it.

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 24, 2016, 03:40:28 PMAs far as I am concerned, pretty much everything that I run under windows works better than stuff under Linux[...]

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 24, 2016, 03:40:28 PMAs far as I'm concerned Windows just works, works on the latest hardware with the fastest drivers that make full use of the hardware they are written for.

And all are quite clearly personal opinion so all you managed to do was prove your own error. The last one I will go further on because the drivers are written [usually for windows] by the people who built the hardware so, in my opinion, the chances of some guy "in a garage" (sic) writing a better driver are highly unlikely. I believe linux support for newer hardware can be flaky, something borne out by my own experience seeking support for recent hardware in linux support forums.

Well, if that's just your opinion, then it doesn't have any real value, so there isn't anything useful to discuss. You might as well have just not posted anything.

Quote from: KekeruseyAnyway, thank you for your time and effort. I think it a shame you didn't approach this more constructively as I am very much the kind of person who will listen to reason but instead you managed to fulfil my every expectation and now I have you tagged as just another Linux evangelist.

:lol: That is hilarious. I suppose I can't bother you to to actually read what I wrote, but that is your choice.

All I wanted to know, was some specifics behind what things you can't do in Linux that you can do in Windows. Perhaps something technical, but for a "technical person" you've provided nothing technical at all. Just vague personal opinions.

Quote from: KekeruseyAnd, on that note, I think we're done :)

Yeah, you can quit whenever, it doesn't bother me either way. Have fun.

Quote from: Steeler on August 28, 2016, 10:12:25 PM

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 28, 2016, 08:43:04 AM

Quote from: Magdalena on August 26, 2016, 10:47:05 PMKeke, I'm not 100% sure, but I have a feeling that this is not over yet. Davin will be back...Monday.

Yeah, but I don't have to respond ... that means it's a question of whether I can stop myself. Good luck with that me!

Keke

He likes to argue, and always must win said argument. But of course that is just my opinion.

It depends on your usage of "argue", if it's the colloquial definition, then I don't like to argue nor is there any winning in this argument. The person said they were technical and that there were things they couldn't do in Linux that they could do in Windows. I wanted to know what those things were. Then the "discussion" tangented away and I was was questioned, so I answered those while the other person kept avoiding my questions. I kept trying to get back to what I was interested in while they were completely moving away from the type of discussion that I like. But like everyone else I suppose, you're allowed to express false statements about me in a public thread and then try to pretend it's just an opinion.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache1.asset-cache.net%2Fxd%2F790-87.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26amp%3Bc%3DIWSAsset%26amp%3Bk%3D2%26amp%3Bd%3DF13A1F9190F00936DE94AFA409A4BDBC35E88DC0DEF812FB7B208710BC196315BDCB56BB3E92595D&hash=737bb5b5f81318ec291866727f76c5a9f3057fbe)
Hey, guys! It's the Linux evangelist! He's back.  :lol:

Also, the penguin thing is just nasty.  >:(

...But that's not relevant to the ever-so-important O-part of the OS. Is relevant to The Asmo's general impression of it though, albeit slightly.

Quote from: Magdalena on August 29, 2016, 04:33:41 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache1.asset-cache.net%2Fxd%2F790-87.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26amp%3Bc%3DIWSAsset%26amp%3Bk%3D2%26amp%3Bd%3DF13A1F9190F00936DE94AFA409A4BDBC35E88DC0DEF812FB7B208710BC196315BDCB56BB3E92595D&hash=737bb5b5f81318ec291866727f76c5a9f3057fbe)
Hey, guys! It's the Linux evangelist! He's back.  :lol:

Oh not you too, Mags.  :'( I bet you'll never guess what OS I'm currently using right now (note to the forum mods who can cheat, I am not spoofing my OS).

Yeah, I'm such a Linux evangelist that I'm using Win10 and happy with it.

Quote from: Davin on August 29, 2016, 05:31:05 PM

Quote from: Magdalena on August 29, 2016, 04:33:41 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache1.asset-cache.net%2Fxd%2F790-87.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26amp%3Bc%3DIWSAsset%26amp%3Bk%3D2%26amp%3Bd%3DF13A1F9190F00936DE94AFA409A4BDBC35E88DC0DEF812FB7B208710BC196315BDCB56BB3E92595D&hash=737bb5b5f81318ec291866727f76c5a9f3057fbe)
Hey, guys! It's the Linux evangelist! He's back.  :lol:

Oh not you too, Mags.  :'( I bet you'll never guess what OS I'm currently using right now (note to the forum mods who can cheat, I am not spoofing my OS).

Yeah, I'm such a Linux evangelist that I'm using Win10 and happy with it.

I don't know what you're all talking about... :lol: I just like your new title, I even put it right below my psychedelic spoon.  ;)
~The Linux evangelist is my friend. :grin:

Quote from: Magdalena on August 29, 2016, 05:40:21 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 29, 2016, 05:31:05 PM

Quote from: Magdalena on August 29, 2016, 04:33:41 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache1.asset-cache.net%2Fxd%2F790-87.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26amp%3Bc%3DIWSAsset%26amp%3Bk%3D2%26amp%3Bd%3DF13A1F9190F00936DE94AFA409A4BDBC35E88DC0DEF812FB7B208710BC196315BDCB56BB3E92595D&hash=737bb5b5f81318ec291866727f76c5a9f3057fbe)
Hey, guys! It's the Linux evangelist! He's back.  :lol:

Oh not you too, Mags.  :'( I bet you'll never guess what OS I'm currently using right now (note to the forum mods who can cheat, I am not spoofing my OS).

Yeah, I'm such a Linux evangelist that I'm using Win10 and happy with it.

I don't know what you're all talking about... :lol: I just like your new title, I even put it right below my psychedelic spoon.  ;)
~The Linux evangelist is my friend. :grin:

I wonder how many other things I'm an evangelist of, since I attempted to alleviate fears about upgrading to Win 10, I must also be a Windows evangelist as well. I also said that OS/X is not that bad either, so I'm also an Apple evangelist. I mean, it's funny and I don't mind it, I just don't understand the application to me. I know some people who I would consider much more fitting for the title of "Linux Evangelist," and they would have a good laugh if I told them I was labeled as one.

Quote from: Davin on August 29, 2016, 06:13:30 PM

Quote from: Magdalena on August 29, 2016, 05:40:21 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 29, 2016, 05:31:05 PM

Quote from: Magdalena on August 29, 2016, 04:33:41 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache1.asset-cache.net%2Fxd%2F790-87.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26amp%3Bc%3DIWSAsset%26amp%3Bk%3D2%26amp%3Bd%3DF13A1F9190F00936DE94AFA409A4BDBC35E88DC0DEF812FB7B208710BC196315BDCB56BB3E92595D&hash=737bb5b5f81318ec291866727f76c5a9f3057fbe)
Hey, guys! It's the Linux evangelist! He's back.  :lol:

Oh not you too, Mags.  :'( I bet you'll never guess what OS I'm currently using right now (note to the forum mods who can cheat, I am not spoofing my OS).

Yeah, I'm such a Linux evangelist that I'm using Win10 and happy with it.

I don't know what you're all talking about... :lol: I just like your new title, I even put it right below my psychedelic spoon.  ;)
~The Linux evangelist is my friend. :grin:

I wonder how many other things I'm an evangelist of, since I attempted to alleviate fears about upgrading to Win 10, I must also be a Windows evangelist as well. I also said that OS/X is not that bad either, so I'm also an Apple evangelist. I mean, it's funny and I don't mind it, I just don't understand the application to me. I know some people who I would consider much more fitting for the title of "Linux Evangelist," and they would have a good laugh if I told them I was labeled as one.

There!
I fixed it!
Better!?
:P

Quote from: Davin on August 29, 2016, 03:56:57 PMBlah, blah, blah...

I've given up ... can't you read?

Keke

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 30, 2016, 07:42:23 AM

Quote from: Davin on August 29, 2016, 03:56:57 PMBlah, blah, blah...

I've given up ... can't you read?

Keke

But you have to have the last word don't you?   :snicker:

Quote from: Tank on August 30, 2016, 08:13:29 AMBut you have to have the last word don't you?

Why not?

Keke

The Asmo was here.















...Is HIS last word. HIS.  >:(

Oh, no it's not!

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 30, 2016, 07:42:23 AM

Quote from: Davin on August 29, 2016, 03:56:57 PMBlah, blah, blah...

I've given up ... can't you read?

Keke

Why...? Why...?
You know he's gonna answer, right?
:lol:

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 30, 2016, 07:42:23 AM

Quote from: Davin on August 29, 2016, 03:56:57 PMBlah, blah, blah...

I've given up ... can't you read?

Yep. However these responses are not just for you. You do realize that this is a public forum right? So if you don't want to keep responding, then don't.

Speaking of which, I want to address your misrepresented statement about the drivers:

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 26, 2016, 10:03:32 PM
The last one I will go further on because the drivers are written [usually for windows] by the people who built the hardware so, in my opinion, the chances of some guy "in a garage" (sic) writing a better driver are highly unlikely. I believe linux support for newer hardware can be flaky, something borne out by my own experience seeking support for recent hardware in linux support forums.

For almost every driver in Linux, I default to the proprietary drivers. Which means the drivers that the hardware manufacturers wrote. I know, it's weird for Kekerusey to be so arrogant and so embarrassingly wrong, but there it is. Actually, except in the cases ancient hardware (where even finding a modern Windows driver is impossible), I can't think of a time when I used a generic device driver in Linux. At least not in the last decade or more when AMD finally reopened the ATI OpenSource stuff. Until then nVidia had been ahead of that game until some recent BS this year.

So for the count, Kekerusey claims that some vague things are easier to do in Windows than in Linux, but can't seem to give any kind of description as to what, and when finally making specific and clear claims has been wrong.

Be done with it, as far as I'm concerned I have corrected the your misrepresentations and am satisfied.

One of the reasons, that I'm running Linux on my 8 year old laptop, is that the "obscure" NVIDIA graphics card was no longer supported by NVIDIA since Windows Vista. The overall performance I got with Windows 8 installed, was more than dreadful. Linux however provided me with a proprietary NVIDIA driver. Once I installed Linux (Mint 16 Mate) on my laptop, it looked like that I'd got a brand new fast machine.

That doesn't mean that Linux is for everyone. In some cases, Linux makes it "common-user-unfriendly" hard to install stuff. Some software can only be installed or upgraded using Terminal commands. Other software cannot be upgraded at all, because it the Linux version is no longer supported (like the Adobe Flash plugin for Firefox). I've also noticed that, in many cases, the "Linux App store" don't offer the latest software versions.

Quote from: OldGit on August 30, 2016, 12:04:56 PM
Oh, no it's not!

>:( IS.

Quote from: Tom62 on August 30, 2016, 05:44:51 PMThat doesn't mean that Linux is for everyone. In some cases, Linux makes it "common-user-unfriendly" hard to install stuff. Some software can only be installed or upgraded using Terminal commands. Other software cannot be upgraded at all, because it the Linux version is no longer supported (like the Adobe Flash plugin for Firefox). I've also noticed that, in many cases, the "Linux App store" don't offer the latest software versions.

And that, I think is a fair and detailed assessment lacking misrepresentations.

Quote from: Davin on August 30, 2016, 04:59:55 PM
Be done with it, as far as I'm concerned I have corrected the your misrepresentations and am satisfied.

What!?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F49.media.tumblr.com%2F8db88e32ad583730296ce07165961edd%2Ftumblr_nir2c6HLrJ1sug1ubo3_r2_500.gif&hash=41e752c9b041ea7a08a471350fc14e0ddf52599d)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Ffmzf6ra.gif&hash=82916b8b68c035ca1ab41957c0ac8ed676541f12)

:grin:

Probably?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi58.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg246%2Fsey115%2Fsey115075%2Ffeet%2520on%2520desk_zpsyxv7uqok.gif&hash=51acae77026f6971b2ed6361a17206ec61bbc5fa)

Quote from: Davin on August 30, 2016, 04:59:55 PMYep. However  ...

Bored now :)

Back to Eli The Computer Guy :)

Keke

You can never be bored around here.  :smileshake:

:lol:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs2.quickmeme.com%2Fimg%2F6b%2F6be0cbf8e085166ffa3c36391031e114be47af4abfd60a9761dbb5e6c7443272.jpg&hash=77372860f6487da444c4368cab331f21c9bade06)

Davin,

If you mean to call me a troll think again ... I actually WANTED a decent conversation defending my OS of choice that, after all, being the title pof the thread. You, however, decided to act the traditional Linux evangelist prat instead.

If that's what you are suggesting then all I can say to you, is, "Go Forth And Multiply, Sonny!" If not then fine.

Keke

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 30, 2016, 09:37:47 PM
Davin,

If you mean to call me a troll think again ...

I think you missed the point of the image entirely. Which makes it all the more hilarious. :lol:

Quote from: KekeruseyI actually WANTED a decent conversation defending my OS of choice that, after all, being the title pof the thread.

Oh, I didn't want a conversation that required any kind of defending or attacking, I just wanted to know what things you were talking about. If you wanted to defend or attack things, then we truly were not looking for the same kind of conversation.

Quote from: KekeruseyYou, however, decided to act the traditional Linux evangelist prat instead.

Yes... by asking you questions about what you said, I am a Linux evangelist.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reactiongifs.com%2Fr%2F2013%2F05%2Fdr-evil-right.gif&hash=b8a5b6450ce7a3435134dd128979b00a15ec0284)

Quote from: KekeruseyIf that's what you are suggesting then all I can say to you, is, "Go Forth And Multiply, Sonny!" If not then fine.

I thought you were done? Don't worry about me, you need to figure yourself out first.

Quote from: Davin on August 30, 2016, 09:45:52 PMI think you missed the point of the image entirely. Which makes it all the more hilarious. :lol:

Quite possibly I did use the word "if" betraying a degree of uncertainty ... which pretty much makes you a dick doesn't it?

Back to Eli The Computer Guy!

Keke

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 30, 2016, 09:48:27 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 30, 2016, 09:45:52 PMI think you missed the point of the image entirely. Which makes it all the more hilarious. :lol:

Quite possibly I did use the word "if" betraying a degree of uncertainty ... which pretty much makes you a dick doesn't it?

Which still means that you missed the point of the image entirely... and this is just making it even more hilarious. :lol:

You really are a dick!

Keke

(https://media.giphy.com/media/14dXclYKbx2ONW/giphy.gif)

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 30, 2016, 09:52:34 PM
You really are a dick!

There is no need for name calling. I don't mind if you do, you won't be able to hurt my feelings, but it is against the rules here. Also, think before you post, so that you don't keep perpetuating misinformation or breaking forum rules.

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 30, 2016, 09:52:34 PM
You really are a dick!

Keke

Come on, man. I know you can do better. Name-calling directed at fellow members doesn't do you justice, and is really against the ethos of this site. Please desist from engaging in this sort of posting. I think you can make valuable contributions to this site, and I'd really like you to stick around, but if you continue along these lines, you will get an official warning.*

* Rule Enforcement Process (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=3015.0)

Keke shouldn't have called Davin a dick. Not arguing with that.
But Davin, you really have no awareness of how you come off. You don't need to be so damn arrogant to make your point. State it and be done without being passive-aggressive. Or at least try.

Just for the record, neither Davin nor anybody else reported the post referred to above. What we have here is another example of the infamous over-moderation that HAF suffers from. 

Spoiler

:grrr:

This message brought to you by your friendly local buttinski guild. And now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Quote from: Recusant on August 31, 2016, 01:42:39 AM
Just for the record, neither Davin nor anybody else reported the post referred to above. What we have here is another example of the infamous over-moderation that HAF suffers from. 

Spoiler

:grrr:

This message brought to you by your friendly local buttinski guild. And now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

^^^
:lol:


...OK, let's continue...
Where were we?
Ah! Yes...

Quote"[Davin]...State it and be done without being passive-aggressive. Or at least try."

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m8fc3ewUso1r76lino1_500.gif&hash=7d171e16fb09c97fed6d217a971ddc4857af4f85)
Continue......

Quote from: Magdalena on August 31, 2016, 01:54:26 AM

Quote from: Recusant on August 31, 2016, 01:42:39 AM
Just for the record, neither Davin nor anybody else reported the post referred to above. What we have here is another example of the infamous over-moderation that HAF suffers from. 

Spoiler

:grrr:

This message brought to you by your friendly local buttinski guild. And now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

^^^
:lol:


...OK, let's continue...
Where were we?
Ah! Yes...

Quote"[Davin]...State it and be done without being passive-aggressive. Or at least try."

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m8fc3ewUso1r76lino1_500.gif&hash=7d171e16fb09c97fed6d217a971ddc4857af4f85)
Continue......

I like your style Mags. Watch out Recusant, you might not be needed around here anymore if she keeps this up. ;D

Quote from: Firebird on August 31, 2016, 01:09:26 AM
Keke shouldn't have called Davin a dick. Not arguing with that.
But Davin, you really have no awareness of how you come off. You don't need to be so damn arrogant to make your point. State it and be done without being passive-aggressive. Or at least try.

Not trying to be a pile-on, but where's the like button!

Thanks, Steeler.  :hug:
However....
Everyone has "tolerated" my style, and it's just a matter of time...Believe me... :grin:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frs702.pbsrc.com%2Falbums%2Fww27%2FCarno%2Fadminmodvsuser.gif%7Ec200&hash=92a2b28bcbf3c88d0e7673e2fca29c3ef66e2bf0)

Quote from: Davin on August 30, 2016, 10:12:10 PMThere is no need for name calling. I don't mind if you do, you won't be able to hurt my feelings, but it is against the rules here. Also, think before you post, so that you don't keep perpetuating misinformation or breaking forum rules.

No misinformation but I apologise for the name calling.

Keke

Quote from: Firebird on August 31, 2016, 01:09:26 AM
Keke shouldn't have called Davin a dick. Not arguing with that.
But Davin, you really have no awareness of how you come off. You don't need to be so damn arrogant to make your point. State it and be done without being passive-aggressive. Or at least try.

I started off just asking a few questions that should have been super easy for a technical person to answer, and all I did was respond in kind. When I see someone treat another person a certain way, I consider that a tacit agreement that is how they want to be treated.

I really don't understand the arrogant bullshit though, I commonly admit to my ignorance on many a topic, I don't think I am all that important, and I don't think my abilities to be more or less than others. I do have some knowledge and skills, just like everyone else, and occasionally I know more about something than other people. That's not arrogance, that's just normal shit that happens. The arrogance would more accurately be applied to the other person who acted like they knew something, never accepted that they were wrong in light of it being demonstrated, and continued to be wrong while trying to put out a authoritarian air of being a "technical person."

I directly confront, which is the polar opposite of passive aggressive.

So I have read your statements, and I tried to apply it to me but found it to be entirely useless and misapplied.

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 31, 2016, 11:15:15 AM[...]I apologise for the name calling.

Don't worry about it, your apology is meaningless and worth nothing. As you have not offended me in the slightest, there is no use for an apology.

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:05:01 PM
I directly confront, which is the polar opposite of passive aggressive.

Sure Davin. As opposed to when you say shit like this:

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:07:14 PM
Don't worry about it, your apology is meaningless and worth nothing.

You are constantly passive-aggressive, and it's obnoxious and gets on a lot of people's nerves. I know you don't really give a crap about what other people say about you, but when Claire was posting her concerns about the forum and attracting new members, a couple of people spoke up about how intimidated they felt as new people. So when you act this way towards new members like Kekerusey, it reminds me of why people might feel that way.

So please, try to control yourself, if not for your sake, for the sake of the forum so we don't scare people off.

Quote from: Firebird on August 31, 2016, 03:52:03 PM
You are constantly passive-aggressive, and it's obnoxious and gets on a lot of people's nerves...

*Ahem*
I would just like to say that this has not been my experience with Davin.

The only thing I've noticed is that when he asks a question, he expects an answer, just like all us. When he doesn't get one, he presses for one, just like any of us would. When people feel "cornered" they turn the whole thing around and attack him. I'm sure a lot of us have also done that at one time or another in that situation.

~That's all.

Quote from: Firebird on August 31, 2016, 03:52:03 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:05:01 PM
I directly confront, which is the polar opposite of passive aggressive.

Sure Davin. As opposed to when you say shit like this:

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:07:14 PM
Don't worry about it, your apology is meaningless and worth nothing.

You are constantly passive-aggressive, and it's obnoxious and gets on a lot of people's nerves.

Bullshit. That is not passive aggressive, that is just how it is. It is clear and direct. Since no offense was taken on my side, there is no need for an apology. I mean, what worth is an apology in this case where no offense was taken?

Quote from: FirebirdI know you don't really give a crap about what other people say about you, but when Claire was posting her concerns about the forum and attracting new members, a couple of people spoke up about how intimidated they felt as new people. So when you act this way towards new members like Kekerusey, it reminds me of why people might feel that way.

Look at my first response to this person, you tell me what was intimidating about that. Then look how they responded to my questions. If they don't start none, there won't be none. I prefer conversations that remain polite and useful, but I also tend to respond in kind.

Quote from: FirebirdSo please, try to control yourself, if not for your sake, for the sake of the forum so we don't scare people off.

I doubt that the person would admit to being intimidated by me. I mean, the person will not admit to being wrong, so what is intimidating, in their view, from a person who is saying things that are not correct? I would be further surprised that the person would publicly admit to being scared of me. that would admit to a weakness, something I doubt that they would be willing to do. So in absence of evidence to support your claims (and I will not be submitting to your clearly psychic abilities), I don't find this useful at all.

Edit: my first reply to the person:

Quote from: Davin on August 23, 2016, 05:05:55 PM

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 22, 2016, 09:56:37 PM

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2016, 10:13:01 PMPractically everyone I know who try Linux end up hating Windows.

I think that kind of thing depends on your social circle ... my friends are pretty much the opposite (IT engineers all of us, Windows users and a bit "meh" about Linux).

I tried Linux, long time ago, for six months and eventually ran back to Windows because I wanted to actually do things.

That's odd that you weren't able to do things. I am able to do everything in Linux that I can in Windows. Many things are nicer in Linux, a few things are not as good as windows, but overall, it's better. I don't hate Windows, I have to use it for my current job, but I could do all the same things in Linux that I do for work and that includes the C# development, though I would still have to test on Windows machines since that is the target platform for the company.

Recently I had to make a feed for a camera available to remote computer, and I made one real quick in Linux which was way easier than when I had to make it again a day later when they told me it had to run on a Windows machine.

Davin,

Apologies are one of those things people do to make things better. It doesn't really matter if you took offence or not, the POLITE thing to do would have been to accept my apology and move on. As it stands there is now clearly something between you and "this person" (your turn of phrase) ... clearly you are not as ambivalent to me as you would like people to believe. So, whether you were passive-aggressive as Firebird suggests or were not, that last has (undoubtedly IMO) made things worse.

With respect to my posts I repeat that at no point did make a solid claim that Windows was better than Linux. I always used phrases like "as far as I am concerned", "better for the things I want to do" meaning that all of them, in context or directly stated, were clearly my opinion and, regardless of your own opinion, something I am entitled to. Using those as your claim that I definitively stated "Windows was better" was effectively a lie on your part and it was that that led directly to my insult, the apology for which you subsequently rejected.

I am currently a man of leisure and doing some online Linux training and, whilst Windows remains the preferred OS for me (and many others), for the record I do not believe Linux to be a bad OS. Indeed, in some ways I feel it embodies the ideals of computing now far more than Windows does, effectively "real computing". Despite that it is, for me (a brain-damaged Windows tech), extremely hard to get my head around its complexities and I have few doubts I will always prefer Windows to Linux. Things change though.

Keke

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 04:38:45 PM

Quote from: Firebird on August 31, 2016, 03:52:03 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:05:01 PM
I directly confront, which is the polar opposite of passive aggressive.

Sure Davin. As opposed to when you say shit like this:

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:07:14 PM
Don't worry about it, your apology is meaningless and worth nothing.

You are constantly passive-aggressive, and it's obnoxious and gets on a lot of people's nerves.

Bullshit. That is not passive aggressive, that is just how it is. It is clear and direct. Since no offense was taken on my side, there is no need for an apology. I mean, what worth is an apology in this case where no offense was taken?

Imagine someone offers you a gift, and you don't like the gift or don't feel it's necessary. Do you push it back to them and say it's "meaningless and worth nothing"? I hope not. But that's what that sounded like you were doing. It doesn't matter that you didn't feel the apology was necessary, he was offering a showing of respect to you and you just treated it like it was worthless. That's not cool.

I'm not saying it's all your fault that this discussion got hostile, but you have a pattern of doing things like this.

This thread started as a discussion of Windows 10.  What's it turned into?  I think it's time we all had a nice cup of tea.

Quote from: Firebird on August 31, 2016, 06:54:50 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 04:38:45 PM

Quote from: Firebird on August 31, 2016, 03:52:03 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:05:01 PM
I directly confront, which is the polar opposite of passive aggressive.

Sure Davin. As opposed to when you say shit like this:

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:07:14 PM
Don't worry about it, your apology is meaningless and worth nothing.

You are constantly passive-aggressive, and it's obnoxious and gets on a lot of people's nerves.

Bullshit. That is not passive aggressive, that is just how it is. It is clear and direct. Since no offense was taken on my side, there is no need for an apology. I mean, what worth is an apology in this case where no offense was taken?

Imagine someone offers you a gift, and you don't like the gift or don't feel it's necessary. Do you push it back to them and say it's "meaningless and worth nothing"? I hope not. But that's what that sounded like you were doing. It doesn't matter that you didn't feel the apology was necessary, he was offering a showing of respect to you and you just treated it like it was worthless. That's not cool.

Yes, I would. If some random stranger comes up and offers me a gift that I do not want, I will let them know that I find it meaningless and worthless to me. What is wrong with that? I don't want, need, nor deserve something as useless as respect from a random stranger.

Quote from: FirebirdI'm not saying it's all your fault that this discussion got hostile, but you have a pattern of doing things like this.

I am respecting the person by letting them know that they don't have to waste time and effort on useless things like that. I mean they can if they want, but I don't care about it and I let them know.

I understand that other people want respect from strangers, so I offer it so long as it is warranted, but I don't care nor require it myself.

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 31, 2016, 06:45:47 PM
Davin,

Apologies are one of those things people do to make things better.

In that case, it does not make things better or worse with me.

Quote from: KekeruseyIt doesn't really matter if you took offence or not, the POLITE thing to do would have been to accept my apology and move on. As it stands there is now clearly something between you and "this person" (your turn of phrase) ... clearly you are not as ambivalent to me as you would like people to believe. So, whether you were passive-aggressive as Firebird suggests or were not, that last has (undoubtedly IMO) made things worse.

You can apologize all you want, I don't want, need, nor care in the slightest for them. What evidence do you have my not being ambivalent towards you? Be careful not to assume that I am the same as other people nor that my language contains doublespeak. I say exactly what I mean, excepting of course typos and missing words. I am a very direct person.

Quote from: KekeruseyWith respect to my posts I repeat that at no point did make a solid claim that Windows was better than Linux. I always used phrases like "as far as I am concerned", "better for the things I want to do") meaning that all of them, in context or directly stated, were clearly my opinion and, regardless of your own opinion, something I am entitled to.

Again. And I do hope, though I do not place much into it, that you understand this: I don't care about that. What I wanted, was for you to simply let me know what things your were talking about when you said you wanted to "do things" in Windows that you couldn't do in Linux and what "things" you thought were easier for yourself to do in Windows. that was it. I don't give any shits about whether a person thinks one is better than the other. I have tried to steer the conversation back to these elusive "things" many times because those "things" are what I was interested in, while correcting what misrepresentations you made on the way.

I'm still interested in those things and I harbor no ill will towards you in the slightest, if you ever actually offer up those currently vague things.

Quote from: KekeruseyUsing those as your claim that I definitively stated "Windows was better" was effectively a lie on your part and it was that that led directly to my insult, the apology for which you subsequently rejected.

I didn't lie, you said one was better than the other (even if it was "in your opinion").

Quote from: OldGit on August 31, 2016, 07:40:13 PM
This thread started as a discussion of Windows 10.  What's it turned into?  I think it's time we all had a nice cup of tea.

I'll have some...
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdjTuIN6.gif%3Fnoredirect&hash=5dd46549d296eb891974e95e50b4c99a5f929c35)

Quote from: Magdalena on August 31, 2016, 08:04:57 PM

Quote from: OldGit on August 31, 2016, 07:40:13 PM
This thread started as a discussion of Windows 10.  What's it turned into?  I think it's time we all had a nice cup of tea.

I'll have some...
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdjTuIN6.gif%3Fnoredirect&hash=5dd46549d296eb891974e95e50b4c99a5f929c35)

I don't like tea, but I'll have a soda.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYUtG0pq.gif&hash=2fb6fd97c6da83ee4171933212204e531f2431f3)

^^^^
:lol:

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:07:14 PM. . . your apology is meaningless and worth nothing.

As you are fond of saying, "Bullshit." His apology was a gesture of good will, and it was not meaningless and without worth. You say you personally have no use for it, but that is not what you said in immediate response (quoted above).

So, it means nothing to you, fine. The way humans generally manage to get along is by utilizing accepted forms of social lubricant to mend minor rifts that might otherwise deepen and result in completely unnecessary conflicts. Whether you like it or not, you're not above such things, and even at this late date you can learn to do something like accept an apology in good grace rather than snottily throwing it back in the face of the one who offered it.

You might say, "oh, but I wasn't being snotty." Again, bullshit. Whatever your intent, any objective observer would describe it as such.

Quote from: Recusant on August 31, 2016, 08:35:16 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:07:14 PM. . . your apology is meaningless and worth nothing.

As you are fond of saying, "Bullshit." His apology was a gesture of good will, and it was not meaningless and without worth. You say you personally have no use for it, but that is not what you said in immediate response (quoted above).

I don't care what it was intended for, I find it meaningless and worthless. Am I not allowed to express my opinion on such things?

Quote from: RecusantSo, it means nothing to you, fine. The way humans generally manage to get along is by utilizing accepted forms of social lubricant to mend minor rifts that might otherwise deepen and result in completely unnecessary conflicts. Whether you like it or not, you're not above such things, and even at this late date you can learn to do something like accept an apology in good grace rather than snottily throwing it back in the face of the one who offered it.

To what purpose would my accepting something I don't want or need just to satisfy someone else, serve? I can think of nothing that is to my benefit, but I am open to hear what benefits you think I might appreciate.

And shame on you for taking my statement out of context.

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:07:14 PM

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 31, 2016, 11:15:15 AM[...]I apologise for the name calling.

Don't worry about it, your apology is meaningless and worth nothing. As you have not offended me in the slightest, there is no use for an apology.

I've been here, listening and talking with people for six years. This is why I like some members a little bit more than others:
(https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0e29f760c27329bf1cb1e032861d4a4a?convert_to_webp=true)

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 08:38:46 PM

Quote from: Recusant on August 31, 2016, 08:35:16 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:07:14 PM. . . your apology is meaningless and worth nothing.

As you are fond of saying, "Bullshit." His apology was a gesture of good will, and it was not meaningless and without worth. You say you personally have no use for it, but that is not what you said in immediate response (quoted above).

I don't care what it was intended for, I find it meaningless and worthless. Am I not allowed to express my opinion on such things?

You didn't express it as "your opinion." You made a categorical statement regarding the significance and worth of Kekerusy's apology.

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 08:38:46 PM

Quote from: RecusantSo, it means nothing to you, fine. The way humans generally manage to get along is by utilizing accepted forms of social lubricant to mend minor rifts that might otherwise deepen and result in completely unnecessary conflicts. Whether you like it or not, you're not above such things, and even at this late date you can learn to do something like accept an apology in good grace rather than snottily throwing it back in the face of the one who offered it.

To what purpose would my accepting something I don't want or need just to satisfy someone else, serve? I can think of nothing that is to my benefit, but I am open to hear what benefits you think I might appreciate.

The benefit to you is that you learn one of the basic aspects of human interaction, which is to consider the impact of your behavior on others (that could very well have negative results for you down the line), and not only what immediately benefits you. It costs you nothing to give a neutral "apology accepted," signifying that you bear no ill will to the person offering the apology. Rejecting the apology on the other hand signifies that you are very possibly harboring animosity toward the person, and are at least entirely self regarding and unwilling to let bygones be bygones. Whether you look at it that way or not, that is how your behavior will be viewed. Try to understand that.

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 08:38:46 PM

And shame on you for taking my statement out of context.

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:07:14 PM

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 31, 2016, 11:15:15 AM[...]I apologise for the name calling.

Don't worry about it, your apology is meaningless and worth nothing. As you have not offended me in the slightest, there is no use for an apology.

The context doesn't change the categorical nature of your statement.

Cats. Fucking herding cats! SMH.

Quote from: Recusant on August 31, 2016, 08:48:54 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 08:38:46 PM

Quote from: Recusant on August 31, 2016, 08:35:16 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:07:14 PM. . . your apology is meaningless and worth nothing.

As you are fond of saying, "Bullshit." His apology was a gesture of good will, and it was not meaningless and without worth. You say you personally have no use for it, but that is not what you said in immediate response (quoted above).

I don't care what it was intended for, I find it meaningless and worthless. Am I not allowed to express my opinion on such things?

You didn't express it as "your opinion." You made a categorical statement regarding the significance and worth of Kekerusy's apology.

Then what significance or worth does it have? Did it have some other meaning rather than towards or involving me? Did it have some kind of secondary purpose? If it did, I am unaware of them and if you are aware of them, then you should explain them.

Quote from: Recusant

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 08:38:46 PM

Quote from: RecusantSo, it means nothing to you, fine. The way humans generally manage to get along is by utilizing accepted forms of social lubricant to mend minor rifts that might otherwise deepen and result in completely unnecessary conflicts. Whether you like it or not, you're not above such things, and even at this late date you can learn to do something like accept an apology in good grace rather than snottily throwing it back in the face of the one who offered it.

To what purpose would my accepting something I don't want or need just to satisfy someone else, serve? I can think of nothing that is to my benefit, but I am open to hear what benefits you think I might appreciate.

The benefit to you is that you learn one of the basic aspects of human interaction, which is to consider the impact of your behavior on others (that could very well have negative results for you down the line), and not only what immediately benefits you.

Like what negative results? I doubt there are any that I care about, and it's not like I haven't thought up a thousand different possibilities, but I am open to hearing them.

Quote from: RecusantIt costs you nothing to give a neutral "apology accepted," signifying that you bear no ill will to the person offering the apology.

It also cost me nothing to let the person know I don't care about apologies. I also said many times I harbor no ill will towards them.

Quote from: RecusantRejecting the apology on the other hand signifies that you are very possibly harboring animosity toward the person, and are at least entirely self regarding and unwilling to let bygones be bygones. Whether you look at it that way or not, that is how your behavior will be viewed. Try to understand that.

I can't stop people from irrationally coming to conclusions about what I say, and I'm more than a bit exhausted from my trying. You can erroneously conclude that I harbor animosity towards the person, I can't stop that. I can't make people read what I wrote for what I wrote, and I've tried a lot of different ways. I've even refrained from my usual sprinkling of "curse words" because the weak minded associate those with feelings of anger. How far must I bend in care of other people's irrationality?

Quote from: Recusant on August 31, 2016, 08:51:42 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 08:38:46 PM

And shame on you for taking my statement out of context.

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 03:07:14 PM

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 31, 2016, 11:15:15 AM[...]I apologise for the name calling.

Don't worry about it, your apology is meaningless and worth nothing. As you have not offended me in the slightest, there is no use for an apology.

The context doesn't change the categorical nature of your statement.

It does change it, because I told the person not to worry about it first and foremost. I find that of great importance as they are words that I meant. I didn't want the person to worry about it. Then I gave my opinion on it.

Quote from: Tank on August 31, 2016, 09:03:38 PM
Cats. Fucking herding cats! SMH.

Oh! It's not so bad...
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYj9Xe2A.gif&hash=012349a9fef03e1ec29aabe3a85c1424a356cedb)
;D

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 09:08:20 PMLike what negative results? I doubt there are any that I care about, and it's not like I haven't thought up a thousand different possibilities, but I am open to hearing them.

Like having friends. Like earning respect among your peers. Like having people take your opinions seriously. Presumably you're interacting with people on a public forum because you want to want to hear what they have to say, have them consider your opinions seriously, and maybe get something out of it yourself. Well, you're not going to accomplish that when you dismiss others in this manner.

Quote from: DavinIt also cost me nothing to let the person know I don't care about apologies.

It cost you respect among some of us. Maybe you don't care about that. But if so, then I don't understand why you choose to interact with us. It also costs HAF because it reflects badly on us when one of our longtime members acts this way.

Quote from: Davin
I can't stop people from irrationally coming to conclusions about what I say, and I'm more than a bit exhausted from my trying. You can erroneously conclude that I harbor animosity towards the person, I can't stop that. I can't make people read what I wrote for what I wrote, and I've tried a lot of different ways. I've even refrained from my usually sprinkling of "curse words" because the weak minded associate those with feelings of anger. How far must I bend in care of other people's irrationality?

If multiple people are telling you that your comments are rubbing people the wrong way and casting you in a bad light, do you ever stop to wonder if perhaps that's so? Or do you just continue to assume everyone else is wrong and you're right? You constantly accuse people of being irrational, misrepresenting you, etc, even when more than one person disagrees with you.

Quote from: Davin
It does change it, because I told the person not to worry about it first and foremost. I find that of great importance as they are words that I meant. I didn't want the person to worry about it. Then I gave my opinion on it.

You truly don't realize how it sounds, do you. Read it again:

Quote from: DavinDon't worry about it, your apology is meaningless and worth nothing.

The second half completely negates the "Don't worry about it." So no, it doesn't matter that you said not to worry about it first, because when you read the whole thing, you sound like you're trampling on his apology and just being sarcastic in the first half of the sentence. Trust me that's how it comes off for the vast majority of people. I'm surprised you don't see it. You're a smart guy, but you seem to lack the ability or willingness to look at the situation from another person's point of view.

Quote from: Firebird on August 31, 2016, 09:31:06 PM

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 09:08:20 PMLike what negative results? I doubt there are any that I care about, and it's not like I haven't thought up a thousand different possibilities, but I am open to hearing them.

Like having friends. Like earning respect among your peers. Like having people take your opinions seriously. Presumably you're interacting with people on a public forum because you want to want to hear what they have to say, have them consider your opinions seriously, and maybe get something out of it yourself. Well, you're not going to accomplish that when you dismiss others in this manner.

Friends are things I have, and I do have respect among my peers. My opinions like everyone else's opinions, should be taken seriously based on the statements and not the character of the person making the statements. Why would I care about people who refuse to acknowledge something because they're being irrational?

Quote from: Firebird

Quote from: DavinIt also cost me nothing to let the person know I don't care about apologies.

It cost you respect among some of us. Maybe you don't care about that. But if so, then I don't understand why you choose to interact with us. It also costs HAF because it reflects badly on us when one of our longtime members acts this way.

Since it wasn't worth anything in the first place, what did I lose? Am I to pretend that I like or appreciate apologies when I really don't just to sate some other person's sensibilities? Are other people's preferences to supersede my own? Are my preferences to supersede your own?

Quote from: Firebird

Quote from: Davin
I can't stop people from irrationally coming to conclusions about what I say, and I'm more than a bit exhausted from my trying. You can erroneously conclude that I harbor animosity towards the person, I can't stop that. I can't make people read what I wrote for what I wrote, and I've tried a lot of different ways. I've even refrained from my usually sprinkling of "curse words" because the weak minded associate those with feelings of anger. How far must I bend in care of other people's irrationality?

If multiple people are telling you that your comments are rubbing people the wrong way and casting you in a bad light, do you ever stop to wonder if perhaps that's so? Or do you just continue to assume everyone else is wrong and you're right? You constantly accuse people of being irrational, misrepresenting you, etc, even when more than one person disagrees with you.

If other people make fallacies, I try to correct that irrationality as I am doing now. And no, I don't myself willingly commit fallacies (appeal to majority in this case). If they can explain it rationally, that would be one thing, and I await that.

Quote from: Firebird

Quote from: Davin
It does change it, because I told the person not to worry about it first and foremost. I find that of great importance as they are words that I meant. I didn't want the person to worry about it. Then I gave my opinion on it.

You truly don't realize how it sounds, do you. Read it again:

Quote from: DavinDon't worry about it, your apology is meaningless and worth nothing.

The second half completely negates the "Don't worry about it." So no, it doesn't matter that you said not to worry about it first, because when you read the whole thing, you sound like you're trampling on his apology and just being sarcastic in the first half of the sentence. Trust me that's how it comes off for the vast majority of people. I'm surprised you don't see it. You're a smart guy, but you seem to lack the ability or willingness to look at the situation from another person's point of view.

So if I just said something I didn't mean, "I accept your apology," it would be taken as not being sarcastic, but if I say something I do mean, that they shouldn't worry about apologizing to me because an apology to me is meaningless and worthless, then it won't be taken for what I mean? That's stupid. I have looked at it from another person's point of view, and I have decided that my preferences on the matter, matter more to me than the other person's preferences.

Davin,

As Recusant said, apologies are just one of those niceties we humans use with each other, just a behavioural norm I suppose.

You say I can apologise all I want yet I have apologised only once and, the way things are going here am unlikely to ever do so again. I am also known for saying exactly what I think, it's gotten me banned from quite a number of places ... when I offered that apology I meant it. Even if I was still inclined to discuss the things I couldn't do in Linux with you further (and right now I'm not) we are talking ancient history, it was SuSE 7 and must have been during the early 2000s.

Since you won't accept my earlier apology and I won't discuss anything much further with you because I think you're basically obnoxious (not an insult, a statement of fact from my POV) it seems we're at an impasse.

Keke

Quote from: Davin
So if I just said something I didn't mean, "I accept your apology," it would be taken as not being sarcastic, but if I say something I do mean, that they shouldn't worry about apologizing to me because an apology to me is meaningless and worthless, then it won't be taken for what I mean? That's stupid. I have looked at it from another person's point of view, and I have decided that my preferences on the matter, matter more to me than the other person's preferences.

It's not taken for what it means because you have absolutely no awareness of how you sound. It's mind-boggling.

Quote from: Davin
Am I to pretend that I like or appreciate apologies when I really don't just to sate some other person's sensibilities?

Why not? Does that violate your conscience?

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 09:43:56 PM
Why would I care about people who refuse to acknowledge something because they're being irrational

Quote from: Davin

Quote from: Firebird
If multiple people are telling you that your comments are rubbing people the wrong way and casting you in a bad light, do you ever stop to wonder if perhaps that's so? Or do you just continue to assume everyone else is wrong and you're right? You constantly accuse people of being irrational, misrepresenting you, etc, even when more than one person disagrees with you.

If other people make fallacies, I try to correct that irrationality as I am doing now. And no, I don't myself willingly commit fallacies (appeal to majority in this case). If they can explain it rationally, that would be one thing, and I await that.

:picard facepalm:

TL;DR: "I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

Quote from: Kekerusey on August 31, 2016, 10:12:32 PM
Davin,

As Recusant said, apologies are just one of those niceties we humans use with each other, just a behavioural norm I suppose.

You say I can apologise all I want yet I have apologised only once and, the way things are going here am unlikely to ever do so again.

That works for me, people don't need to waste time or effort apologizing to me.

Quote from: KekeruseyI am also known for saying exactly what I think, it's gotten me banned from quite a number of places ... when I offered that apology I meant it. Even if I was still inclined to discuss the things I couldn't do in Linux with you further (and right now I'm not) we are talking ancient history, it was SuSE 7 and must have been during the early 2000s.

That makes sense, SuSE was never one I preferred, though I think it was better than RedHat at the time. I suppose that those things are lost to memory, at least I certainly wouldn't remember anything specific from that time. For the record, I would have accepted this answer then as I do now.

Quote from: KekeruseySince you won't accept my earlier apology and I won't discuss anything much further with you because I think you're basically obnoxious (not an insult, a statement of fact from my POV) it seems we're at an impasse.

Alright, don't worry about it and have fun.

Quote from: Firebird on August 31, 2016, 10:18:54 PM

Quote from: Davin
So if I just said something I didn't mean, "I accept your apology," it would be taken as not being sarcastic, but if I say something I do mean, that they shouldn't worry about apologizing to me because an apology to me is meaningless and worthless, then it won't be taken for what I mean? That's stupid. I have looked at it from another person's point of view, and I have decided that my preferences on the matter, matter more to me than the other person's preferences.

It's not taken for what it means because you have absolutely no awareness of how you sound. It's mind-boggling.

I have awareness, but I don't really care if other people choose to be irrational.

Quote from: Firebird

Quote from: Davin
Am I to pretend that I like or appreciate apologies when I really don't just to sate some other person's sensibilities?

Why not? Does that violate your conscience?

I don't find it a compelling reason.

Quote from: Firebird

Quote from: Davin on August 31, 2016, 09:43:56 PM
Why would I care about people who refuse to acknowledge something because they're being irrational

Quote from: Davin

Quote from: Firebird
If multiple people are telling you that your comments are rubbing people the wrong way and casting you in a bad light, do you ever stop to wonder if perhaps that's so? Or do you just continue to assume everyone else is wrong and you're right? You constantly accuse people of being irrational, misrepresenting you, etc, even when more than one person disagrees with you.

If other people make fallacies, I try to correct that irrationality as I am doing now. And no, I don't myself willingly commit fallacies (appeal to majority in this case). If they can explain it rationally, that would be one thing, and I await that.

:picard facepalm:

TL;DR: "I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

You can reject reality and substitute your own all you want, I don't mind.

My laptop has always been Windows 10, unaltered, since new.  Yesterday I switched it on and it immediately spent almost an hour converting to Windows 10.  There's no significant difference that I can find, although it has changed the tray slightly and left a folder called windows.old under C.

Any ideas what might have brought this on?

Yesterday in the office one PC took 6 hours to update!

That's annoying!  But why should mine change from W10 to W10?

Mine got an update about a week ago, and what annoyed me the most was not that it took two hours but when I wanted to turn off my computer I took forever to find the OFF button due to the new tray layout.   :rant1:

There may well be good and valid reasons for it to change from Win10 to Win10. 10 is not necessarilly 10, you know.  :)

Quote from: OldGit on October 15, 2016, 12:24:11 PM
My laptop has always been Windows 10, unaltered, since new.  Yesterday I switched it on and it immediately spent almost an hour converting to Windows 10.  There's no significant difference that I can find, although it has changed the tray slightly and left a folder called windows.old under C.

Any ideas what might have brought this on?

There used to be service packs that'd update windows but they're passe.
MS now pushes out a new operating system, hmm so the original Aug launch, then there was the October 2015 and the latest Aug 2016 Anniversary thing.
So MS has pushed an update from Windows 10 to a newer windows 10 on you, version 1607 I think, probably.
Windows creates the windows.old folder, which is probably 15GB or more in size in case they've forked it up and a roll back is needed.

Microshit is, er .....Yes, isn't it?

I am livid about MS or whoever it is that seizes my computer no matter what I do. I try to turn it off and it tells me that it is updating and ....sorry Charlie we are in charge here.  At other times, I try to turn it on and it tells me it is updating W10 and that I should buzz off while they are doing their thing, sometimes for extending periods of time while they do their thing. When I become sufficiently pissed, I snatch the power cord out of the wall plug. When I turn the computer back on, even a day later, it continues to intimidate me which leads  to upheavals of anguish followed by profanity and foot stomping.   

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.epicstream.com%2Fassets%2Fuploads%2Fckeditor%2Fimages%2FhfZirnJ%281%29.png&hash=b7e794aafee2e98e4a5ec17c4bdde381379221af)