Some quotes from Jesus about everlasting life

[AnimatedDirt]

But when they start saying that I am going to hell. That is completely over the top. They are saying that they want me to be tortured, that they want me to be annihilated and that the god they praise will be their hero and will do this stuff to me simply because I don't believe in it. In a way they are threatening me, in a way they are painting me and all atheists out to be scum worthy of annihilation. The arrogance of some Christians I find intolerable.

I think DJ, an ex-Christian, answers this, gives perspective for you, Stevil.  It may not seem nice from your perspective and you may be right about some Christians that do this, however as DJ points out, the majority want something better for *you.  Forgive our ignorance in relaying the information.

Now, yes, I think the Christian who chooses to tell me they're going to "pray for me" (in a non-patronizing tone) is probably nicer than the Christian who chooses to tell me that I'm going to hell. But on a fundamental, theological, level all Christians probably believe in the validity of those two things and I expect it to peek out every now and again. I used to be a Christian who genuinely believed and worried that people I loved were going to hell; I honestly didn't want it to happen and didn't wish it on any of them, but I believed it. I felt like I had to and it was a kind of on-going mental torture.

So that might be why I cut Christians a bit of slack on this, as well. I honestly feel kind of bad for them. It sucks to really like someone, feel like something horrible has to happened to them, and to not be able to do anything about it.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Hasn't AD made it pretty clear that he, as somewhat of a Seventh Day Adventist, doesn't believe in a literal, eternal, burning-place-of-torment hell?

[Amicale]

When I was a Christian, I always had an issue with the concept of hell. It made no sense to me that one's eternal destiny could be based on a belief they had (sometimes made at the very last moment before their death, too) rather than primarily based on how one lived their life. I even allowed for the idea that sure, we all mess up -- but overall, most of us intend to do far more good than harm, and that ought to count for something. It bothered me that a criminal, a murderer, could accept Jesus on death row and go to heaven, whereas someone who was an atheist and did their best to live a good life wouldn't be eligible for heaven, based just on what they believed.

Then again, as a Christian, I never thought much about what the Christian idea of heaven meant -- in my head, it was more or less a happy place, free from pain, where we'd see God and see our loved ones again. What I made myself ignore was that several of my loved ones might not be there; I couldn't contemplate such good people not being there. I also made myself ignore what heaven really was: an eternal state of worshipping the God of the Old and New testaments... which would mean condoning, loving and worshipping all the things that God did, because God is "holy". Once I realized that was more the Christian concept of heaven, I grew far less interested in it. I couldn't even stomach it. I realized I didn't condone so much of what I read in the Bible... and that's when I realized that even if "A" God could possibly exist somewhere, I no longer wanted to follow that one.

That was the beginning of my walk away from Christianity. I honestly examined what I knew about the Bible, about what eternal life would mean if I continued to want to accept it, and chose not to. I knew that I couldn't in good conscience believe a deity was holy when I could or would never want to do to humans most of the things this God did to them. So, that was that. 

[MariaEvri]

For me to elaborate would be considered preaching.  I'll suggest simply that the woman while not a "lost sheep of Israel" was nonetheless given the same that was considered only for the "lost sheep of Israel" and therefore...the same.

what if the woman instead of saying yes I am a dog said instead "please do not swear at me, I am human"
would she get any help then?
why would god need to call names in order to help? Why does he need to berud? Where is the love?
if she didn;t have faith he wouldn't have helped?
If I were a doctor, I would help as much as I could witout the need for calling names, or asking if they believe or not. If I claimed I loved all people, I would help all people.

[AnimatedDirt]

For me to elaborate would be considered preaching.  I'll suggest simply that the woman while not a "lost sheep of Israel" was nonetheless given the same that was considered only for the "lost sheep of Israel" and therefore...the same.

what if the woman instead of saying yes I am a dog said instead "please do not swear at me, I am human"
would she get any help then?
why would god need to call names in order to help? Why does he need to berud? Where is the love?
if she didn;t have faith he wouldn't have helped?
If I were a doctor, I would help as much as I could witout the need for calling names, or asking if they believe or not. If I claimed I loved all people, I would help all people.

I don't get it.  You seem to take offense at "dogs", but cannot see that she wasn't a "dog"..."Dog" is simply a metaphor for someone that "picks up the scraps" whereas the believer is the one that embraces and believes therefore comes to Him.  This episode simply points out that Christ will heal ALL that come.  If one needs help, but doesn't come, then they don't get healing.  However if their need surpasses their understanding and believe, Christ is faithful to heal.  Hence also the gift metaphor.  As long as I'm out of touch with those that want to give me a xmas/birthday gift, I don't receive the gift that they would otherwise give me.

There's nothing rude about this God respecting one's beliefs or lack thereof.

[Amicale]

For me to elaborate would be considered preaching.  I'll suggest simply that the woman while not a "lost sheep of Israel" was nonetheless given the same that was considered only for the "lost sheep of Israel" and therefore...the same.

what if the woman instead of saying yes I am a dog said instead "please do not swear at me, I am human"
would she get any help then?
why would god need to call names in order to help? Why does he need to berud? Where is the love?
if she didn;t have faith he wouldn't have helped?
If I were a doctor, I would help as much as I could witout the need for calling names, or asking if they believe or not. If I claimed I loved all people, I would help all people.

I don't get it.  You seem to take offense at "dogs", but cannot see that she wasn't a "dog"..."Dog" is simply a metaphor for someone that "picks up the scraps" whereas the believer is the one that embraces and believes therefore comes to Him.  This episode simply points out that Christ will heal ALL that come.  If one needs help, but doesn't come, then they don't get healing.  However if their need surpasses their understanding and believe, Christ is faithful to heal.  Hence also the gift metaphor.  As long as I'm out of touch with those that want to give me a xmas/birthday gift, I don't receive the gift that they would otherwise give me.

There's nothing rude about this God respecting one's beliefs or lack thereof.

AD, I don't see what you seem to see in the text.

Quote from: Matthew 15:21-28
Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."
Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.
He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

What I see here is Jesus saying he only came for the Jews - the 'lost sheep of Israel'. He believed that he was sent to ONLY primarily take care of those people, not the others. When he says it's not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs, he seems to be saying that it's right right to waste time/effort/miracles/healing on people he wasn't sent to help. The woman responds to this by saying she's so desperate that even if the time/effort/miracles/healing aren't meant for her (or her daughter), she'll take any "leftovers" that there might be. Essentially, she's saying "even if you didn't want me to have it, I'll take it anyway if there's a bit of it that comes my way". That's sad, first that Jesus wouldn't seem to WANT to help all people... and secondly, sad that before he helped her, she had to make the point of nearly begging for the help.

These verses don't suggest that Jesus thought he came to help everyone, that he was sent to help everyone, or that he wanted to help everyone. He grudgingly helped her, supposedly, because he was maybe so surprised that even though she wasn't 'a lost sheep of Israel', she still thought he could help.

I dunno. It just strikes me as odd that if Jesus were divine, he'd have this response to a human being he in fact created, as he was also God, besides being the son of God. Anyone else have an issue with that, too? After all, we'd find it downright insulting today if we went to the doctor and said "please help me, my daughter has a medical issue" and the response was "sorry, my practice isn't really meant to help people like you" when in fact the doctor advertised himself as being able to treat that exact condition.

[AnimatedDirt]

For me to elaborate would be considered preaching.  I'll suggest simply that the woman while not a "lost sheep of Israel" was nonetheless given the same that was considered only for the "lost sheep of Israel" and therefore...the same.

what if the woman instead of saying yes I am a dog said instead "please do not swear at me, I am human"
would she get any help then?
why would god need to call names in order to help? Why does he need to berud? Where is the love?
if she didn;t have faith he wouldn't have helped?
If I were a doctor, I would help as much as I could witout the need for calling names, or asking if they believe or not. If I claimed I loved all people, I would help all people.

I don't get it.  You seem to take offense at "dogs", but cannot see that she wasn't a "dog"..."Dog" is simply a metaphor for someone that "picks up the scraps" whereas the believer is the one that embraces and believes therefore comes to Him.  This episode simply points out that Christ will heal ALL that come.  If one needs help, but doesn't come, then they don't get healing.  However if their need surpasses their understanding and believe, Christ is faithful to heal.  Hence also the gift metaphor.  As long as I'm out of touch with those that want to give me a xmas/birthday gift, I don't receive the gift that they would otherwise give me.

There's nothing rude about this God respecting one's beliefs or lack thereof.

AD, I don't see what you seem to see in the text.

Quote from: Matthew 15:21-28
Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."
Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.
He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

What I see here is Jesus saying he only came for the Jews - the 'lost sheep of Israel'. He believed that he was sent to ONLY primarily take care of those people, not the others. When he says it's not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs, he seems to be saying that it's right right to waste time/effort/miracles/healing on people he wasn't sent to help. The woman responds to this by saying she's so desperate that even if the time/effort/miracles/healing aren't meant for her (or her daughter), she'll take any "leftovers" that there might be. Essentially, she's saying "even if you didn't want me to have it, I'll take it anyway if there's a bit of it that comes my way". That's sad, first that Jesus wouldn't seem to WANT to help all people... and secondly, sad that before he helped her, she had to make the point of nearly begging for the help.

These verses don't suggest that Jesus thought he came to help everyone, that he was sent to help everyone, or that he wanted to help everyone. He grudgingly helped her, supposedly, because he was maybe so surprised that even though she wasn't 'a lost sheep of Israel', she still thought he could help.

I dunno. It just strikes me as odd that if Jesus were divine, he'd have this response to a human being he in fact created, as he was also God, besides being the son of God. Anyone else have an issue with that, too? After all, we'd find it downright insulting today if we went to the doctor and said "please help me, my daughter has a medical issue" and the response was "sorry, my practice isn't really meant to help people like you" when in fact the doctor advertised himself as being able to treat that exact condition.

I understand why you would think or interpret this as such.  It is because this is cherry-picking an argument and not taking the whole of the bible to interpret a small piece.

One text:

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.  As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."  For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?

Granted there is AT LEAST one word that might need some defining in there(what does it mean to be justified), but that is what study is for.

[Stevil]

BUT that you're offended by someone thinking/saying to you, "You're going to hell." ??

I'm actually fine with you thinking it, but to verbally tell someone or to imply it to that person that does not believe as you do, that I find offensive. We are not part of this horrific mythical fairytale. We live in the real world.
I find it as bad as when Christians jump up and down for joy when a disaster such as the Japan tsunami or the Christmas tsunami that hit indonesia. These guys seem genuinely excited at the death and destruction of others as if they think the rapture is upon the earth. It seems to me they take pleasure in others misfortunes. Imagined or real, it doesn't matter, the intent is the same.

I neither judged nor damned DJ.  I simply "noted" her choice in the matter of fairytale.  My point was that she made a statement of choice on the matter of a fairytale claim.

What was the point behind verballising this observation of yours? So what if she did make a statement of choice, what does that lead to?

[AnimatedDirt]

What was the point behind verballising this observation of yours? So what if she did make a statement of choice, what does that lead to?

One word:  Choice or Freewill.

[DeterminedJuliet]

What was the point behind verballising this observation of yours? So what if she did make a statement of choice, what does that lead to?

One word:  Choice or Freewill.

I am totally confused by this. Isn't freewill just an expression of choice?

[Ali]

It's not much of a choice, if you ask me.

I used to work for a company that gave you 6 sick days (and would crow about this when talking about the benefits package "6 sick days a year!") but then would write you up if you took over 5 sick days per year.   Sure, you have 6 sick days, as long as you're not actually dumb enough to use them.  Sure, god gave you  freewill.  As long as you're not actually dumb enough to use it!

[Sweetdeath]

What was the point behind verballising this observation of yours? So what if she did make a statement of choice, what does that lead to?

One word:  Choice or Freewill.

I am totally confused by this. Isn't freewill just an expression of choice?

Yeah, it is! (mind is blown)

[Stevil]

One word:  Choice or Freewill.

I would call BS on that.
Your intent was not to discuss or prove freewill but was to highlight Pascal's manipulative wager.

If you want to discuss, or try to prove free will then why not start a thread. I'm pretty sure I could debunk the concept of free will.

[AnimatedDirt]

One word:  Choice or Freewill.

I am totally confused by this. Isn't freewill just an expression of choice?

Sure.  One chooses their beliefs of their own freewill.  Both fit the point.  I simply meant either of the two fit.  Maybe I should've written, "Two words: Choice, Freewill" ?   

It's not much of a choice, if you ask me.

And yet DJ expressed her choice.  If God is, then knowing the bible, she's clear on her choice.  It's not me damning her or willing the consequence.  If one is not clear on the choice(s), then I don't presume to know how God will judge.

I used to work for a company that gave you 6 sick days (and would crow about this when talking about the benefits package "6 sick days a year!") but then would write you up if you took over 5 sick days per year.   Sure, you have 6 sick days, as long as you're not actually dumb enough to use them.  Sure, god gave you  freewill.  As long as you're not actually dumb enough to use it!

So did you choose to work there or were you forced? 

[AnimatedDirt]

One word:  Choice or Freewill.

I would call BS on that.
Your intent was not to discuss or prove freewill but was to highlight Pascal's manipulative wager.

How is it manipulative?  Have you been manipulated into something or have you been able to use your own thoughts to come to your beliefs...err...disbelief, to be more specific. 

If you want to discuss, or try to prove free will then why not start a thread. I'm pretty sure I could debunk the concept of free will.

You're always on the attack, Stevil.  It's difficult to read your words in a calm tone.  I'll try though.  If I'm deluded, why would it cause you to get offendedby any of this?