God is perfect

[Davin]

The dog analogy is very apropos. I really don't have much argument with it. However, you are wrong about the reward part, and the silence part. Unfortunately, it seems you have never experienced God's reward in your life and his voice. What a pity. At least, however, he's keeping you alive for a while yet to change your ways.

That's the bottom line.

Could you give a detailed description of his voice?
Would it be the same voice that other people hear? It would be interesting to see if there is some commonality between believers descriptions.

Like the commonality in descriptions of extraterrestrial anal probers? Or the commonality in descriptions of the light skinned, blue eyed Jesus? But I do agree that it would be interesting.

[xSilverPhinx]

The dog analogy is very apropos. I really don't have much argument with it. However, you are wrong about the reward part, and the silence part. Unfortunately, it seems you have never experienced God's reward in your life and his voice. What a pity. At least, however, he's keeping you alive for a while yet to change your ways.

That's the bottom line.

Could you give a detailed description of his voice?
Would it be the same voice that other people hear? It would be interesting to see if there is some commonality between believers descriptions.

Like the commonality in descriptions of extraterrestrial anal probers? Or the commonality in descriptions of the light skinned, blue eyed Jesus? But I do agree that it would be interesting.

Yes, Egor, please do give us a description.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Would you say you represent the minority, majority or somewhere in between, Bruce?

Don't know about the world, but in my area, probably a minority. 

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Augustine used a lot of assertions. He said that although the world looks imperfect to us this is because we look at things from a limited or distorted perspective. Ask Bruce or Egor if their belief is distorted. I would wager they would say no, but it is our vision of the world that is distorted. It does amaze me that Augustine, Anslem, Bruce, Egor and every Christian theist have such faith that they can make certain and positive assertions without proof of the very thing they place their faith in. So is God perfect? Well, they cannot even demonstrate their god; so the question of its existence is foremost than the question of whether or not it is perfect. But Gods existence is not the title of this thread.

I shy away from using words like "perfect" in describing God, because I'm not sure what that means with respect to the deity.  He is what he is. I suppose it depends on one's standard for perfection.  I also shy away from all the "omni" statements, because I don't know whether they fit or not.  I start with my personal experience and build from there.  Even from biblical statements, there are certain things that God cannot do (such as lie), so I'm not sure that qualifies as "omnipotent."  So instead of engaging in theological speculations about things I can't prove, I try more and more to keep my descriptions of God confined to what I experience.

[Egor]

Could you give a detailed description of his voice?
Would it be the same voice that other people hear? It would be interesting to see if there is some commonality between believer's descriptions.

It sounds like my voice. God communicates mind-to-mind. It's like you talk to God and he talks back and then maybe for your own convenience you translate it into words. So, his voice sounds like my voice. And it is the same for everyone who hears the voice of God. They hear him in their own voice.

But when he talks it is instantaneous; the entire communication is there all at once, and you know it's not from you because you wouldn't have thought it up like that. And you don't always have to translate it into words. With experience, the words seem to become unnecessary.

For example, right now God is telling me that it's okay to respond to this question you asked, that it's what he wants me to do, and I tell him that the response is going to be such-and-such, and He says it doesn't matter this time but not to elaborate too much.  And then I ask, "Is there anything else I should say?" but I get no response, so I assume that's the end of it.

And this is the mystical part: Once I have a communication with God like that, I don't want it to stop. I don't want it to end. My mind expands in response to it, and I begin to see everything like I'm looking at the whole universe at one time. And even as I type this, I feel a flood of communications, and the channel is open, and I can ask Him anything. And then I realize the reason he stopped the communication in the last paragraph was so that I would write this paragraph in my own words, and I think that's very cool.

That's how it is with me. And it's been this way going on 40 years. So, let me ask you a question now: Given the experience I described to you, and given the amount of my life that it has been there, do you really think I could ever become an atheist?

Have you seen my post 13 on this thread, about a possible con, how do you know your PE hasn't been a con?

If God has allowed me to be deceived by Satan all my life, then there's nothing I can do about that. God is God and there's no stopping Him. I certainly don't want my relationship with what I believe to be God to end.

[Buddy]

If God has allowed me to be deceived by Satan all my life, then there's nothing I can do about that. God is God and there's no stopping Him. I certainly don't want my relationship with what I believe to be God to end.

So let me get this straight. If you are following the devil, it's because god wanted you too? I was aware that man sinned on there own without any help from god. That means that all the homosexuals, atheists, adulterers, thieves, and liars are like that because god let them be swayed by evil? How does that make god "good"? Surely, a loving god wouldn't willingly let his children hang out with the devil?

[Stevil]

Even from biblical statements, there are certain things that God cannot do (such as lie)

Genesis 2:17
    but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die
1 Kings 22:23
    Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee

[Stevil]

That's how it is with me. And it's been this way going on 40 years. So, let me ask you a question now: Given the experience I described to you, and given the amount of my life that it has been there, do you really think I could ever become an atheist?

It is not usual for Christians to hear so much voice in their heads, certainly not on superficial things like this post.
Do you think it is possible that you have some issues? Many people do. Have you seen "A beautiful mind"?

If God has allowed me to be deceived by Satan all my life, then there's nothing I can do about that. God is God and there's no stopping Him. I certainly don't want my relationship with what I believe to be God to end.

So you don't care if the voices are the truth, you don't care if they lead you astray or into dispear, or away from God? You like the voices, so you obey?

22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persude him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

So god sends spirits to speak to humans, to lie to them, to lead them to their demise.


The story of Job shows that god will not protect you, he is willing to gamble with the devil, knowing that your loved ones will die, as a test to see if you love him. God offers nothing in return, no protection or loyalty for Job's dedication, no love, just a trivial gamble based on his own vanity.

[xSilverPhinx]

Could you give a detailed description of his voice?
Would it be the same voice that other people hear? It would be interesting to see if there is some commonality between believer's descriptions.

It sounds like my voice. God communicates mind-to-mind. It's like you talk to God and he talks back and then maybe for your own convenience you translate it into words. So, his voice sounds like my voice. And it is the same for everyone who hears the voice of God. They hear him in their own voice.

But when he talks it is instantaneous; the entire communication is there all at once, and you know it's not from you because you wouldn't have thought it up like that. And you don't always have to translate it into words. With experience, the words seem to become unnecessary.

For example, right now God is telling me that it's okay to respond to this question you asked, that it's what he wants me to do, and I tell him that the response is going to be such-and-such, and He says it doesn't matter this time but not to elaborate too much.  And then I ask, "Is there anything else I should say?" but I get no response, so I assume that's the end of it.

And this is the mystical part: Once I have a communication with God like that, I don't want it to stop. I don't want it to end. My mind expands in response to it, and I begin to see everything like I'm looking at the whole universe at one time. And even as I type this, I feel a flood of communications, and the channel is open, and I can ask Him anything. And then I realize the reason he stopped the communication in the last paragraph was so that I would write this paragraph in my own words, and I think that's very cool.

That's how it is with me. And it's been this way going on 40 years. So, let me ask you a question now: Given the experience I described to you, and given the amount of my life that it has been there, do you really think I could ever become an atheist?

Have you seen my post 13 on this thread, about a possible con, how do you know your PE hasn't been a con?

If God has allowed me to be deceived by Satan all my life, then there's nothing I can do about that. God is God and there's no stopping Him. I certainly don't want my relationship with what I believe to be God to end.

Could you ask god or whatever it is you think is talking to you to give you some knowledge that is measurable (not pure unfalsifiable speculative philosophising or sophistry) that you dont know or better, couldn't have known? That would make your, er..communications...with god a little more plausible.

[Guardian85]

If God has allowed me to be deceived by Satan all my life, then there's nothing I can do about that. God is God and there's no stopping Him. I certainly don't want my relationship with what I believe to be God to end.

It sounds to me like you don't need a fictional god or devil to communicate with you. You are doing a fine job of making up a supernatural explenation for your own thoughts and ideas. Step up, be a man and take credit for your own ideas. Don't hide behind your imaginary friend. That is what little children do.

If you haven't seen this before I highly reccomend watching it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[Traveler]

...That's how it is with me. And it's been this way going on 40 years. So, let me ask you a question now: Given the experience I described to you, and given the amount of my life that it has been there, do you really think I could ever become an atheist?

Yes, you could. I have experiences like that all the time. But our interpretations of those experirences differ. In my case, I don't put a particular interpretation on it. It might be a spirit of some kind, it might be a guide (think shamanic journey), it might be my subconscious mind giving me guidance. It could be something I haven't thought of. The difference between you and I is that you believe the voice is god. I think its highly unlikely (at least as god's been defined by the various world religions I know of). I would go further, though. In my experience, I can actually see these beings (sometimes people, sometimes animals, sometimes even a plant) in what I'd call a waking dream. I was introduced to this work about 30 years ago in a therapeutic setting. It's the first time I understood what some people might be experiencing when they have a religious experience. But I don't believe that religious people have a lock on how they should interpret those experiences.

So, experience, good. Interpretation? We can't really know what that voice or those images are. At least that's my opinion, and my voices and images don't care what I call them. It's not important. What's important is that the advice, the learnings, the growth, the healing ... those things are very real and of value.

Edited to add: If the voices/images truly are god, I wonder why he/she/it takes so much time with me, an atheist? Unless god isn't what christians think it is.

[Egor]

Do you think it is possible that you have some issues? Many people do. Have you seen "A beautiful mind"?

I only know what I know. That question is pretty much like the "Satan" question

So you don't care if the voices are the truth, you don't care if they lead you astray or into dispear,[despair?] or away from God? You like the voices, so you obey?

I told you once; they are not voices.

22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persude him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

So god sends spirits to speak to humans, to lie to them, to lead them to their demise.

The story of Job shows that god will not protect you, he is willing to gamble with the devil, knowing that your loved ones will die, as a test to see if you love him. God offers nothing in return, no protection or loyalty for Job's dedication, no love, just a trivial gamble based on his own vanity.

God is God. What are you going to do? Do you think not believing in Him makes Him disappear?

Yes, you could. I have experiences like that all the time. But our interpretations of those experirences differ. In my case, I don't put a particular interpretation on it. It might be a spirit of some kind, it might be a guide (think shamanic journey), it might be my subconscious mind giving me guidance. It could be something I haven't thought of. The difference between you and I is that you believe the voice is god. I think its highly unlikely (at least as god's been defined by the various world religions I know of). I would go further, though. In my experience, I can actually see these beings (sometimes people, sometimes animals, sometimes even a plant) in what I'd call a waking dream. I was introduced to this work about 30 years ago in a therapeutic setting. It's the first time I understood what some people might be experiencing when they have a religious experience. But I don't believe that religious people have a lock on how they should interpret those experiences.

So, experience, good. Interpretation? We can't really know what that voice or those images are. At least that's my opinion, and my voices and images don't care what I call them. It's not important. What's important is that the advice, the learnings, the growth, the healing ... those things are very real and of value.

You don't sound like much of an atheist to me.

Edited to add: If the voices/images truly are god, I wonder why he/she/it takes so much time with me, an atheist? Unless god isn't what christians think it is.

What's interesting is that every religion has its mystics. And the mystical experience seems to be pretty much the same across all religions. The mainstream religion is often not at all like the mystical version of it. You call yourself an atheist and yet you seem to think we have similar mystical experiences, and we probably do. I attach myself to the Christian Church, probably because I have experienced profound truths hidden within the teachings of Jesus Christ and the symbols used to describe his life.

There ought to be a new religion for mystics only. Except mystics tend to be way too individualistic for anything like that, or maybe they don't need a religion--they are a religion.

[Stevil]

So you don't care if the voices are the truth, you don't care if they lead you astray or into dispear,[despair?] or away from God? You like the voices, so you obey?

I told you once; they are not voices.

Hmmm, lets look back.

It sounds like my voice. God communicates mind-to-mind. It's like you talk to God and he talks back and then maybe for your own convenience you translate it into words. So, his voice sounds like my voice. And it is the same for everyone who hears the voice of God. They hear him in their own voice.

Voices, yeah?

God is God. What are you going to do? Do you think not believing in Him makes Him disappear?

If you believe in him and his tyranny, then wouldn't you want to find a way to defeat him?

[Traveler]

...You don't sound like much of an atheist to me...

An atheist doesn't believe in god. I don't believe in god, therefore I'm an atheist. But atheist says nothing about my experiences, or anything else. In fact, there are many spiritual atheists. Those of us who seek, who have interesting experiences that are difficult to explain, and who value our intuition. None of that requires a personal god, and in my opinion is exceedingly unlikely to do with one. I'm not the stereotypical science-only atheist, no. But I've never believed in god, so I've probably been an atheist for longer than most people on this board.

[Sandra Craft]

It sounds to me like you don't need a fictional god or devil to communicate with you.

Given the attributes Ed has assigned his god, I'm having a hard time knowing how one would distinguish between this god and Satan?