Three examples of Markan expansions of gMark

[Gawen]

Well, first of all, I see you received no good replies to the same post over at Atheist Forums:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-10281-post-224522.html#pid224522

And I see you have a site:
http://www.freewebs.com/lmbarre/historyandtradition.htm

At any rate, many scholars consider Mark 14: 61b-64 as interpolation.

9:12b is considered "glosses".

14:28 & 16:7 are considered interpolations.
There are many others.

I'll ask you this: Do your questions fit the ABA or ABBA rule of thumb? To explain the ABA:

Begin story A,then  introduce story B, then return to and complete story A. Example: Mark 5:21-24. Jairus, pleas to Jesus to heal his daughter. A woman with a hemorrhage interrupts Jesus on the way and only after recording the woman's healing Mark resumes with the raising of Jairus' daughter, who had died while Jesus tended the other woman. Of course, this isn't to say that all "sandwiched" verses are interpolations, but neither are they all literary devices...especially in Mark.

Another example in chapter 11: Mark separates the cursing of the fig tree and its subsequent withering with Jesus' clearing of the temple. This technique occurs nine times in the Gospel. These stories within story are considered interpolations, insertions, framing, inclusio and Schiebungen. If you consider your examples, how do you feel the interpolations affect the flow of the narrative?

Another example of interpolation:
In chapter 6 of 2 Maccabees, we read of Gentile atrocities in Jerusalem narrated in the third person followed by a theodicy in the first person and then back to third person.

As for John the Baptist; he serves as a preamble to the baptism. This preamble is embarrassing because the prophecy (quoted as coming from Isaiah) actually begins in Malachi (3:1). The account of JtB is intended to present John as a forerunner subordinate to Jesus and his baptism becomes an empty sacrament. Matthew and Luke have an extended text and the presumption there is that Mark depends on Matthew and Luke. What this says, in other words, that the account in Mark of John the Baptist is a later addition. Why do I think that?

Well, Josephus had something to say about JtB and it isn't all that kosher. The JtB material intrudes into the story context rather roughly. The (Josephus) paragraphs on either side of it follow perfectly if the JtB section is removed.
The passage about JtB says Herod sent John to the castle of Macherus to be killed. Josephus wrote that the castle of Macherus did not belong to Herod.
The author writes that the reason Herod's army was defeated by Aretas was because God was punishing him for his unjust treatment of John. But a few paragraphs later (18.7.2) Josephus writes: And thus did God punish Herodias for her envy at her brother, and Herod also for giving ear to the vain discourses of a woman.
Josephus makes no mention of JtB when discussing Herod in The Wars of the Jews.
JtB is not mentioned in the early Greek table of contents to the Antiquities, but he is found in the later Latin version. Antiquities, Book 18, chapter 5, paras 1-3.

So what is left is the Gospel narratives of JtB. The earliest of those describe his appearance and preaching as a fulfillment of prophecy. He is described as a new Elijah and appeals to the passages in the Prophets.

At any rate, whatever the origin of GMark, it did not originate through the writing down of oral tradition. After the opening, we are more or less in the immediate presence of Peter with a detour of Herod and John the Baptist. The "Little Apocalypse" in chapter 13 is the most extended piece in the book. But, on the whole, GMark is suspicious to being the memoirs of Peter.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

All of this talk about gMark and sources is interesting, but until someone comes up with actual manuscript evidence of such a document, it's all within the realm of speculation. It's just as easy to conclude that Mark wrote essentially what we have as his Gospel (minus the last part of chapter 16) as is, from his own recollections of Peter's sermons.

[Gawen]

All of this talk about gMark and sources is interesting, but until someone comes up with actual manuscript evidence of such a document, it's all within the realm of speculation. It's just as easy to conclude that Mark wrote essentially what we have as his Gospel (minus the last part of chapter 16) as is, from his own recollections of Peter's sermons.

Well, you have to admit there is no original. And you have to admit that there are several versions of all the gospels (and portions thereof) and they don not agree with each other.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

All of this talk about gMark and sources is interesting, but until someone comes up with actual manuscript evidence of such a document, it's all within the realm of speculation. It's just as easy to conclude that Mark wrote essentially what we have as his Gospel (minus the last part of chapter 16) as is, from his own recollections of Peter's sermons.

Well, you have to admit there is no original. And you have to admit that there are several versions of all the gospels (and portions thereof) and they don not agree with each other.

That's true, but modern efforts at analyzing the manuscripts have given us a pretty good idea what the original looked like, and even atheist scholars like Bart Ehrman accept works like the Nestle-Aland/UBS 3 eclectic Greek text as pretty accurate.

[Too Few Lions]

That's true, but modern efforts at analyzing the manuscripts have given us a pretty good idea what the original looked like, and even atheist scholars like Bart Ehrman accept works like the Nestle-Aland/UBS 3 eclectic Greek text as pretty accurate.

To my knowledge, Bart Ehrmann isn't an atheist, he's an agnostic. He started out as a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, who went into academia convinced that the Bible was the 'Word of God' and should be studied as such, and wanted to prove it's 'Truth' through academia and convert skeptic academics in the field of biblical studies.

He studied and studied the Bible, and came to the conclusion that it was far from the word of any god, as its books had been written, altered and rewritten many times over the centuries, and no original copies of any of the books exist. Not even any copies of the original copies. I don't think he could reconcile that with the belief that the Bible was the 'Word of God'. After all, surely 'Almighty God' could have made some effort to ensure the original copies of his 'Holy Books' survived and weren't continually being altered and changed by Christians and Jews throughout history?

[Gawen]

There was a time when I started to get heavily involved with this stuff. I soon came to realise that not knowing or having the time to learn Koine Greek put a damper on study. I also realised that there are many others out there that do a much better job than I, so I leave it to them.

Imbarre, you need to come up with some sort of equation for the research you're doing. If you're working off others research, put in links or something and show how you're reaching the conclusions you come to. I know of another discussion board with excellent posters in critical Biblical study and history. If you're interested, send me a PM.

[lmbarre]

Do you think that the author's view of Jesus is articulated by the centurion?

Articulated as in - made clear? Sure. But it does nothing to lend evidence to the story actually happening and to those it is happening to.

Please don't misunderstand me.  I am not arguing that gMark's portrayal is a historical, eye-witness report.  As I noted, it is a larger-than-life rendition.  But I do not think it is a totally baseless portrayal.  It seems to me that gMark captures the gist of Jesus' final hours.

[lmbarre]

If I am right about these alleged insertions, we would find gMark in the surrounding material, leaving the following as gMark:

The Twelve Sent Out
7 And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits ; 8 and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff -no bread, no bag, no money in their belt - 9 but to wear sandals ; and He added, "Do not put on two tunics." 10 And He said to them, "Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. 11 "Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them." 12 They went out and preached that men should repent. 13 And they were casting out many demons and were anointing with oil many sick people and healing them.  30 The apostles gathered together with Jesus ; and they reported to Him all that they had done and taught.

gMark is the second example would be:

20 And He came home, and the crowd gathered again, to such an extent that they could not even eat a meal. 21 When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, "He has lost His senses."  31 Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You." 33 Answering them, He said, "Who are My mother and My brothers ?" 34 Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers ! 35 "For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother."

In the third example, I would also assign the following to gMark:

33 They came to Capernaum ; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, "What were you discussing on the way ?" 34 But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. 35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all." 36 Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, 37 "Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me."42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

In this regard, I find additional evidence of gMark in the proposal that gMark ended in Mark 15:39 with the centurion's evaluation of Jesus.  Mark supplied the remaining episodes of Jesus' burial and of his resurrection.  Mark either composd or copied from a source the following material:


In the first example, Mark either composed or copied a source in the following in the first example:

14 And King Herod heard of it, for His name had become well known ; and people were saying, "John the Baptist has risen from the dead, and that is why these miraculous powers are at work in Him." 15 But others were saying, "He is Elijah." And others were saying, "He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old." 16 But when Herod heard of it, he kept saying, "John, whom I beheaded, has risen !" 17 For Herod himself had sent and had John arrested and bound in prison on account of Herodias, the wife of his brother Philip, because he had married her. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, "It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife." 19 Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death and could not do so; 20 for Herod was afraid of John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. And when he heard him, he was very perplexed ; but he used to enjoy listening to him. 21 A strategic day came when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his lords and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee ; 22 and when the daughter of Herodias herself came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his dinner guests ; and the king said to the girl, "Ask me for whatever you want and I will give it to you." 23 And he swore to her, "Whatever you ask of me, I will give it to you; up to half of my kingdom." 24 And she went out and said to her mother, "What shall I ask for?" And she said, "The head of John the Baptist." 25 Immediately she came in a hurry to the king and asked, saying, "I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter." 26 And although the king was very sorry, yet because of his oaths and because of his dinner guests, he was unwilling to refuse her. 27 Immediately the king sent an executioner and commanded him to bring back his head. And he went and had him beheaded in the prison, 28 and brought his head on a platter, and gave it to the girl ; and the girl gave it to her mother. 29 When his disciples heard about this, they came and took away his body and laid it in a tomb.

In the second example, the insertion is:

22 The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons." 23 And He called them to Himself and began speaking to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan ? 24 "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26 "If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished ! 27 "But no one can enter the strong man's house and plunder his property unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house. 28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter ; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin "- 30 because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

In the third example, Markan material would be:

38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40 "For he who is not against us is for us. 41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.

To summarize, the gMark material is found in 1) The commissioning of the Twelve; 2) the family of Jesus coming for him; 3) a discourse on children.  Markan material would be found in 1) The fate of John the Baptizer; 2) An accusation or sorcery; 3) the unknown disciple.

I have risked some redundancy here for the sake of clarity.  Note also that these three alleged insertions appear to have no connection with the preceeding or following context, thereby indicating a possible insertion.