Three examples of Markan expansions of gMark

[lmbarre]

The three clearest indications that an underlying narrative has been expanded by a later hand are:

- The insertion of the story of John the Baptizer's death:

The Twelve Sent Out
7 And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits ; 8 and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff -no bread, no bag, no money in their belt - 9 but to wear sandals ; and He added, "Do not put on two tunics." 10 And He said to them, "Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. 11 "Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them." 12 They went out and preached that men should repent. 13 And they were casting out many demons and were anointing with oil many sick people and healing them.

John's Fate Recalled
14 And King Herod heard of it, for His name had become well known ; and people were saying, "John the Baptist has risen from the dead, and that is why these miraculous powers are at work in Him." 15 But others were saying, "He is Elijah." And others were saying, "He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old." 16 But when Herod heard of it, he kept saying, "John, whom I beheaded, has risen !" 17 For Herod himself had sent and had John arrested and bound in prison on account of Herodias, the wife of his brother Philip, because he had married her. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, "It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife." 19 Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death and could not do so; 20 for Herod was afraid of John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. And when he heard him, he was very perplexed ; but he used to enjoy listening to him. 21 A strategic day came when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his lords and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee ; 22 and when the daughter of Herodias herself came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his dinner guests ; and the king said to the girl, "Ask me for whatever you want and I will give it to you." 23 And he swore to her, "Whatever you ask of me, I will give it to you; up to half of my kingdom." 24 And she went out and said to her mother, "What shall I ask for?" And she said, "The head of John the Baptist." 25 Immediately she came in a hurry to the king and asked, saying, "I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter." 26 And although the king was very sorry, yet because of his oaths and because of his dinner guests, he was unwilling to refuse her. 27 Immediately the king sent an executioner and commanded him to bring back his head. And he went and had him beheaded in the prison, 28 and brought his head on a platter, and gave it to the girl ; and the girl gave it to her mother. 29 When his disciples heard about this, they came and took away his body and laid it in a tomb.

30 The apostles gathered together with Jesus ; and they reported to Him all that they had done and taught.

31 And He said to them, "Come away by yourselves to a secluded place and rest a while." (For there were many people coming and going, and they did not even have time to eat.) 32 They went away in the boat to a secluded place by themselves.


- Jesus' family comes to get him because he seems unbalanced:

20 And He came home, and the crowd gathered again, to such an extent that they could not even eat a meal. 21 When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, "He has lost His senses."

22 The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons." 23 And He called them to Himself and began speaking to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan ? 24 "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26 "If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished ! 27 "But no one can enter the strong man's house and plunder his property unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house. 28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter ; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin "- 30 because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

31 Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You." 33 Answering them, He said, "Who are My mother and My brothers ?" 34 Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers ! 35 "For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother."

- An insertion into Jesus' discourse on children:

33 They came to Capernaum ; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, "What were you discussing on the way ?" 34 But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. 35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all." 36 Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, 37 "Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me."

Dire Warnings
38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40 "For he who is not against us is for us. 41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.

42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

[Tank]

This is the third topic you have started in a row that is a copy paste from another forum. Not very good form at all.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

And no explanation of your argument, either.

[lmbarre]

And no explanation of your argument, either.

The question is do these examples justify the conclusion that an underlying narrative has been expanded.

[lmbarre]

This is the third topic you have started in a row that is a copy paste from another forum. Not very good form at all.

Would the form have been improved had I changed a few words?  Or are you saying that I should not have posted the same topic in more than one forum?

[Tank]

This is the third topic you have started in a row that is a copy paste from another forum. Not very good form at all.

Would the form have been improved had I changed a few words?  Or are you saying that I should not have posted the same topic in more than one forum?

It would have been helpful if you had given links to the other places you had posted this so we could get up to speed on the responses you had already had thus saving us time going through arguments already dealt with. You took advantage of the copy pasta but didn't extend the same courtesy to the membership here. Not a big issue but if you are multi-posting then it would be nice to have a link.

[lmbarre]

It did not occur to me to post a link rather than quote the entry.  Now I know.

[Twentythree]

It did not occur to me to post a link rather than quote the entry.  Now I know.

you got served

[Tank]

It did not occur to me to post a link rather than quote the entry.  Now I know.

Quote and post a link would be ideal 

[lmbarre]

Allow me to summarize my understanding of Mark's gospel.

-- Mark contains an earlief version of the Jesus story that concluded in Mark 15:39, having no burial and no resurrection episodes.

-- This portrayal "chronicles" the failure of Jesus, a messianic apocalypticist.

-- The portaryal has a "high brow" character to it, showing an affinity with classic themes of tragedy.  A virtuous man's fatal mistake (hamartia) is exposed by fate, which in this case is the death of the protagonist.   The purpose of the story was to inspire pity and fear, leading to a catharsis of the soul.

-- Jesus' mistake was his subscription to Jewish apocalypticism, or more specifically, that he existed to inaugurate the coming of the Messianic Kingdom.

-- Jesus death proved on the one hand that he was not the Messiah and on the other that he was indeed a "son of god."  That the author's view would be expressed by the centurion, the leader of the crucifixion detail, is surprising as is the conclusion that Jesus was indeed guilty of blasphemy as the high priest and the Sanhedrin maintained.  In fact, the portayal of Jesus, the Sanhedrin and the centurion are all nuanced characters, making it difficlut to cast the players as either all good or all bad.  Jesus turns out to be quite mistaken, the Sanhedrin delivers a true verdict and the centurion of all people becomes the author's mouthpiece for a correct assessment of Jesus.  Contrast this tragic portaryal of Jesus with the Christian comedy that has Jesus rising from the dead.

[Too Few Lions]

I think it's interesting that the earliest known versions of Mark don't have a resurrection of Jesus, and Mark is widely considered the original gospel that Matthew and Luke borrowed from. It wouldn't surprise me if the resurrection was a later addition to the story, partly to give it a more dynamic ending and partly to justify the Christian belief in an actual physical resurrection of the dead, which early Christians used to justify by pointing out Jesus' supposed resurrection.

I wouldn't go as far as saying that no resurrection as part of the original story means Jesus is a failure, but then I look at the whole story as a mythological construct. It would appear to put him in some hallowed company as a suffering hero / saviour / philosopher, along with figures such as Socrates, Odysseus and Heracles.

[Gawen]

-- Jesus death proved...that he was indeed a "son of god." 

No it doesn't. When a convicted killer is executed, his death does not prove is his crime, the evidence proves the crime. There is no evidence other than in a holy book that says Jesus was the son of any god.

That the author's view would be expressed by the centurion, the leader of the crucifixion detail, is surprising

So a centurion says it it must be true...

...as is the conclusion that Jesus was indeed guilty of blasphemy as the high priest and the Sanhedrin maintained.

God made several covenants/commandments with his chosen people for all time. If Jesus broke them...so what?

In fact, the portayal of Jesus, the Sanhedrin and the centurion are all nuanced characters, making it difficlut to cast the players as either all good or all bad.

So?

Jesus turns out to be quite mistaken, the Sanhedrin delivers a true verdict

Perhaps.

and the centurion of all people becomes the author's mouthpiece for a correct assessment of Jesus. 

So far, this is an unsubstantiated assertion.

[lmbarre]

Do you think that the author's view of Jesus is articulated by the centurion?

[Gawen]

Do you think that the author's view of Jesus is articulated by the centurion?

Articulated as in - made clear? Sure. But it does nothing to lend evidence to the story actually happening and to those it is happening to.

[lmbarre]

We have diverged from the original topic of this thread.  I presented three examples which may be interpreted as Markan expansions of an underlying text (gMark).  Do we have hear an example of Markan authorial style or has Mark rather arranged the material into an A-B-A structure?