Re: What About Dignity?

[Asmodean]

Count me in there, too.

You a theist..? *Jack Sparrow* Have I bitten you before?*/Sparrow*

[Sandra Craft]

I meant dignity within the human race. I try not to act undignified in front of my dog, but I really want my dignity in and amongst other people. And I agree that everyone feels dignified for different reasons, perhaps. But, and I will ask this again, how is there dignity without a superior being giving one dignity?

Some say that friends give them their dignity, but I would argue that if a person derives dignity from the opinions of their friends then they don't really have dignity.

The bolded lines are in contradiction with each other.  I'm sure you have an explanation.

I don't see how they contradict. I want to have my dignity recognized by other people, but other people don't give me dignity. They can't.

And I'm not trying to say that I have dignity and you don't. I think atheists do have dignity, and that's my point: Atheism is untrue.

Thanks for the explanation, the first bolded bit didn't make it clear that you merely wanted your belief in the Xtian god recognized by other people.  However, personally, I think you're just playing word games.  You write that one only has dignity as a believer in god, which would mean that atheists are automatically without dignity.  But if you claim we do have dignity (a dignity that's definition is limited to your standards) then by the magic of manipulation atheists do believe in your god, we're just 1) lying about it or 2) mistaken in thinking we don't. 

You're doing the very same thing you accused another poster of -- setting the bar exactly where you are able to clear it and then congratulating yourself on being able to clear it there, and for additional absurdity you're congratulating yourself on the idea that you've dragged other people over a bar they don't see, much less find any value in clearing.

[Tristan Jay]

Count me in there, too.

You a theist..? *Jack Sparrow* Have I bitten you before?*/Sparrow*

I can't make any claims about quality, but go for it, have a little munch (just leave most of me as leftovers, I'll need that much).   

[Egor]

Going back to the OP, I'm curious, are you assuming that the process of becoming an atheist and then subsequently turning to God again is inevitable in some way?  And why the focus on dignity in particular?

No, my point is that atheists try to have their cake and eat it too. They deny God exists but then claim to have dignity, yet only God can give a person dignity. Or at least that's the point I'm trying to make.

My Grandfather was dignified, the way he carried himself, presented himself, refrained from vulgarity (I don't mean that he hardly used cuss words).  I admired him, and aspire to that.  I fail, but I like to keep trying.

Was your grandfather an atheist?

I also felt less dignity within the context of Christian religious practices.  At a time in my life when I needed to improve my self-esteem, I followed this path at the urging of a friend.  I wonder how things might have been different now, years down the road.

It is true: in order to be a follower of Christ, one has to be able to look in the mirror and say, "I'm not a good person. I can't make myself a good person. Only God's grace will keep me from the hell I deserve." Then one puts their faith in Christ, and then one is a new creature, transformed by God.

At which has more dignity, a person who wants to be formed into the perfection of Christ or a person who thinks they're perfect just as they are?

When it comes to self-esteem, I don't think Jesus would agree that we need it. I think he would find it a detriment to our spiritual health. He would rather we put our faith in the grace of God to save us.

That's why he said, anyone who will not give up their own life is not worthy to follow him. A person must take up their cross daily to follow him (the cross being a symbol of guilt and sin).

To grow spiritually, you have to realize you are not a good person. Self-esteem be damned.

I would actually say that to go against God's example is more dignified: by not lying, committing genocide or murder, by not judging people, by not setting a double standard---most humans manage to live up to a standard that God hasn't, making us in many ways more dignified and admirable than him.

God is the creator and destroyer of all things. All things are His. No one and no thing belongs to itself. We all belong to God body and soul. And here's a tip: one day, everything will die. You, me, and every living thing dies. I know you want God to be all-indulgent, but that's only because you don't see yourself clearly. As Jesus would say, your light is darkness, and therefore how great is that darkness.

The fact that most people either praise him, ignore him, or are up to something else (other religions), rather than spending most of their days seething with anger at his cruelty is rather gracious and dignified of the bulk of humanity.   

I don't know what planet you're living on if you can really look at this world full of people and see a lot of dignity.

I think we've seen a fair enough sampling of atheist responses, now I would like to see you follow through on this if you don't mind my asking.  Don't beat around the bush, go straight to the heart of what your proving point is, and then let us work backward from there and question our way through it.  There's been a lot of patience, humoring and dignity from atheists here approaching your topic, so let's go to the point.  I want to see what you've got, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt; let's see it.  Prove your point.  With dignity.  Please.   

1.   Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2.   A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3.   Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4.   A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5.   Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6.   Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7.   If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.

[Asmodean]

I can't make any claims about quality, but go for it, have a little munch (just leave most of me as leftovers, I'll need that much).   

Neh... You don't seem quite biteable enough 

[Asmodean]

1.   Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2.   A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3.   Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4.   A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5.   Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6.   Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7.   If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.

The first premise hinges on the working definition of "real". Are you talking about percieved or "absolute" reality?
The second is fallacious since a person can indeed give himself a "High position and worth"
The third is not a logical derivative from the second. (Sorry, Tank, I REALLY couldn't come up with a better example) I can not give myself a blowjob. Does that mean that no other person can give me one?
The fourth is not a logical derivative from any of the above
The fifth is a half-statement and should be grouped with the sixth under the same number.
Number six is not a logical derivative from any of the above with regard to dignity being a delusion
Number seven is the sum-total of the other fallacies.

[Norfolk And Chance]

No, my point is that atheists try to have their cake and eat it too. They deny God exists but then claim to have dignity, yet only God can give a person dignity. Or at least that's the point I'm trying to make.

First of all, what is the point of having a cake if you cannot eat it? Secondly, it is not the case anyway - yes we do not believe god exists, so obviously we don't believe only god can give dignity. There's no contradiction there or anything.

It is true: in order to be a follower of Christ, one has to be able to look in the mirror and say, "I'm not a good person. I can't make myself a good person. Only God's grace will keep me from the hell I deserve."

This makes me sad, that people can be so weak minded and unable to take responsibility for the sort of person that they are.

Then one puts their faith in Christ, and then one is a new creature, transformed by God.

You're actually the same creature, turning yourself into what you think is a better person, all by yourself, like you could have done as an atheist, except you believe god is behind it.

At which has more dignity, a person who wants to be formed into the perfection of Christ or a person who thinks they're perfect just as they are?

Well, we don't know there was a perfect christ or even a christ, and on the other point, not accepting christ does not mean a person thinks he is perfect. I don't accept christ, neither do I think I'm perfect. I don't need christ either, to cope with my imperfection.

When it comes to self-esteem, I don't think Jesus would agree that we need it. I think he would find it a detriment to our spiritual health. He would rather we put our faith in the grace of God to save us.

That's why he said, anyone who will not give up their own life is not worthy to follow him. A person must take up their cross daily to follow him (the cross being a symbol of guilt and sin).

To grow spiritually, you have to realize you are not a good person. Self-esteem be damned.

I realise I'm a good person, so I can skip the god bit then?

God is the creator and destroyer of all things. All things are His. No one and no thing belongs to itself. We all belong to God body and soul. And here's a tip: one day, everything will die. You, me, and every living thing dies.

Yes, we know everything will die. Not a reason to believe in a god.

I don't know what planet you're living on if you can really look at this world full of people and see a lot of dignity.

Your own words - not a lot of dignity. As roughly 90% of the worlds population are a theist, how do you explain the lack of dignity?

1.   Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.

At best, it is a conceptual label and needs observers to accept that the subject is being dignified in their opinion.

2.   A human cannot give him or herself dignity.

Why? Don't just make statements, back them up with reasons.

3.   Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.

Why? You made a statement about #2, you did not give a reason to believe #2 is true.

4.   A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.

Why? Reasons please

5.   Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.

Why?

6.   Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.

Why? If the being does not exist, the statement "only god can give dignity" is invalid. It would then be up to us to create, and define dignity. If we want.

7.   If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.

Why? If atheism is true, then what we say goes, and if we say dignity is real and not god given, then that is that.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

1.   Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2.   A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3.   Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4.   A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5.   Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6.   Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7.   If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.

I would contest premises 2 & 4.  If this is your concept of dignity, then we are arguing about differing definitions. If you define dignity as something that by its very nature must be given by a "greater being," then this is not really an argument - it is simply a definition that you have adopted.  People can have high self-esteem and grant that same esteem to others without God.  I think you and most others here are arguing apples and oranges.  

[Recusant]

1.   Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.

OK, but your definition doesn't include the full meaning of the word, as can be seen by checking any worthwhile dictionary. See the definition posted by Tank earlier in the thread, or Merriam-Webster. In particular, see 4 ": formal reserve or seriousness of manner, appearance, or language."

2.   A human cannot give him or herself dignity.

This is a bald assertion, Egor. It seems to be essential to your position, and as such you need to do more than just present it as an axiom, because it isn't self evident, given that it contradicts the actual definition: See 4 above, clearly referring to a person's bearing, which is indeed something that they themselves are responsible for. This must be addressed, else your syllogism fails.

3.   Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.

Until #2 is repaired, #3 is meaningless. In addition, this contradicts Merriam-Webster's 1 ": the quality or state of being worthy, honored, or esteemed." You can of course make your own private definition of a word, but that doesn't mean that you can impose it on the rest of us who use the language.

4.   A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.

Another bald assertion which contradicts the actual meaning of the word "dignity." In Merriam-Webster's 2, there is reference to "rank, office, or position" which implies something bestowed by an authority, but authority does not by any means necessitate a "greater being." A king is not a greater being, for instance (except in a political sense), yet he is one who may confer rank, office, or position. Even accepting that dignity in Merriam-Webster's 2 requires some form of superiority, it's only one sense of the meaning of the word. It doesn't exhaustively cover the meaning, thus it's only by ignoring the rest of the meaning that your # 4 would be correct. You have some serious work to do to show why it's reasonable to only address one particular aspect of the meaning of the word. As well, you need to justify applying that aspect to the entire concept, while ignoring the other aspects which contradict your argument.

5.   Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.

6.   Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.

7.   If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.

Either you address the problems with 1 through 4, or we can consider the syllogism dead, and points 5 through 7 become nonsensical. (I agree with Asmodean: points 5 and 6 should either be reworded, or consolidated into a single point.)

I had hoped for better from you, Egor.

[Crow]

I would contest premises 2 & 4.  If this is your concept of dignity, then we are arguing about differing definitions. If you define dignity as something that by its very nature must be given by a "greater being," then this is not really an argument - it is simply a definition that you have adopted.  People can have high self-esteem and grant that same esteem to others without God.  I think you and most others here are arguing apples and oranges.  

Totally agree, as the actual definition of dignity has bugger all to do with religion and is more along the lines of the words nonchalance, elegance, phlegm (not the mucus meaning but the calmness of character).

[xSilverPhinx]

Could you go back a bit and start over? Clarify the bald assertions you have made so far.

Why can dignity only exist if given by a god? It would be nice if you answered why your particular god over others too. Do you consider other sincere theists who are not Christians to not have any dignity? Is that a convenient position for you that your god alone can bestow dignity?

[Whitney]

I still don't know what egor thinks "dignity" means.

All I can assume is he thinks it means being of value to a higher power...in which case, duh, you'd have to have a higher power in order to have (his idea) of dignity.

But that's not what dignity actually means so, whatever...no point arguing with someone who defines words in whatever way they want.

[Asmodean]

no point arguing with someone who defines words in whatever way they want.

Fun, personal amusement, wasting time... Those are reasons. They ARE. 

[Whitney]

1.   Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2.   A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3.   Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4.   A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5.   Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6.   Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7.   If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.

1.  Dignity is an emotional state of expressing high self esteem in both action and mannerism.
2.  Humans are able to express emotions.
3.  Therefore, humans can have dignity.

If you define the word correctly it gets much easier and doesn't require false premises.

[Asmodean]

If you define the word correctly it gets much easier and doesn't require false premises.

Uncanny, that... Seven bad ones to three even The Asmo can live with just like THAT *snap fingers*