Re: What About Dignity?

[Norfolk And Chance]

I meant dignity within the human race. I try not to act undignified in front of my dog, but I really want my dignity in and amongst other people. And I agree that everyone feels dignified for different reasons, perhaps. But, and I will ask this again, how is there dignity without a superior being giving one dignity?

Easy, the concept of dignity exists and god doesn't.

I'm not sure dignity is a feeling of being better than someone else either, which is basically what your definition boils down to. And if you want to view it so, then you would need an authority to bestow it on you. Thinking oneself as better than another is divisive, confrontational, and leads to wars.

Many in here have stated that they give themselves dignity by reflecting on their accomplishments. I would argue that's not real dignity, that's only a delusion of dignity.

You're a theist, so we would argue that everything you talk about is a delusion...so, yeah....

Some say that friends give them their dignity, but I would argue that if a person derives dignity from the opinions of their friends then they don't really have dignity.

Yes you would argue that, but you have no case other than "dignity can only be god given", which is no argument when we don't believe there is a god. 

We only seem to have true dignity when someone greater than we are sets us above and apart from others.

Not really. If someone is infirm and elderly, we may say we want to preserve their dignity when we care for them - if anything it's about empathy for others.

For instance, if there is a God and he favors us, then we really do have dignity. We have a reason to feel worthy, because God has said we are. And if God has said it, no one can ever take it away.

There is no evidence of god favouring anyone, and no evidence of god. Nobody appears to be chosen and have god on their side.

If there is no God, there is no basis for dignity, only the delusion of dignity.

If there is no god, then we - and that includes you - get to decide what is dignity, what is morality etc.

You are missing out on shaping your own world because you are leaving it all up to a being that doesn't communicate his wishes with anyone, apart from in the 2,000 year old book which of course no one can take literally without looking like an idiot.

[Tristan Jay]

I'm wondering at what point atheists stop being atheists and start believing in God again. What I mean is surely you have dignity, yes? So where does that dignity come from. If atheism is true, that is if there is no God, how can any human being have any dignity?

Going back to the OP, I'm curious, are you assuming that the process of becoming an atheist and then subsequently turning to God again is inevitable in some way?  And why the focus on dignity in particular?  Another poster suggested this as interchangeable with morals; I imagine any Christian could expand even further to substitute anything that has emerged in human culture and society, even including modern advances such as computers and so forth.  No credit for human's own hard work?  I wouldn't want to give credit for my hard work to survive on this badly designed planet away to God.  Just a little ramble/rant.

My Grandfather was dignified, the way he carried himself, presented himself, refrained from vulgarity (I don't mean that he hardly used cuss words).  I admired him, and aspire to that.  I fail, but I like to keep trying.

I also felt less dignity within the context of Christian religious practices.  At a time in my life when I needed to improve my self-esteem, I followed this path at the urging of a friend.  I wonder how things might have been different now, years down the road.

I would actually say that to go against God's example is more dignified: by not lying, committing genocide or murder, by not judging people, by not setting a double standard---most humans manage to live up to a standard that God hasn't, making us in many ways more dignified and admirable than him.  The fact that most people either praise him, ignore him, or are up to something else (other religions), rather than spending most of their days seething with anger at his cruelty is rather gracious and dignified of the bulk of humanity.  

Well, my point here was to suggest that in order to believe in dignity one must ultimately believe in God. A point I hope to prove.

I think we've seen a fair enough sampling of atheist responses, now I would like to see you follow through on this if you don't mind my asking.  Don't beat around the bush, go straight to the heart of what your proving point is, and then let us work backward from there and question our way through it.  There's been a lot of patience, humoring and dignity from atheists here approaching your topic, so let's go to the point.  I want to see what you've got, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt; let's see it.  Prove your point.  With dignity.  Please.  

[Recusant]

Well, my point here was to suggest that in order to believe in dignity one must ultimately believe in God. A point I hope to prove.

I think we've seen a fair enough sampling of atheist responses, now I would like to see you follow through on this if you don't mind my asking.  Don't beat around the bush, go straight to the heart of what your proving point is, and then let us work backward from there and question our way through it. . . .  I want to see what you've got, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt; let's see it.  Prove your point.  With dignity.  Please.  

[The Magic Pudding]

[xSilverPhinx]

Good post, Tristan Jay

[xSilverPhinx]

Really, anyways, the main problem with this thread is that the word 'dignity' means different things within a spectrum of meaning to different people, under different circumstances. to me, it has more to do with intrinsic self-esteem, for others, more with what other's (generic others) think about them.

In that sense, I do have a sense of dignity that is not dependant on others, except perhaps some, and may be more in line with something you feel is given to you. I don't feel, however, that if a creator of the universe exists, that I'm more special because I believe in it. Actually, I find that to be rather undignified. If it's something that has to be given to you, then you don't have it. As in it's not part of your person. Then you really would need to defend the existence of some external powerful thing to give it to you.

Unimpressive.

[Whitney]

"Dignity" today seems to relate to self-esteem or self-worth.  A person could get his/her self-esteem or sense of self-worth from parents, from teachers, from self, from philosophy, from personal achievements, from any number of sources.  It really boils down to how one feels about one's person.  For the theist, experience with God or scripture can be another source, but there are multiple sources for everyone.  Humans in general are at the pinnacle of the food chain, so whether you view yourself as being made in the image of God or as being the most advanced step in the process of evolution (or both), humans are still the "crown of creation" under either scenario, so there is a valid basis for having a positive image of self either way.

I think the above is good concise response to the question that anyone should be able to understand.

Egor, did you see the above?  If so, how do you respond?  Keep in mind that one of your fellow Christians wrote it so it's not an evil atheist point of view 

I meant dignity within the human race. I try not to act undignified in front of my dog, but I really want my dignity in and amongst other people. And I agree that everyone feels dignified for different reasons, perhaps. But, and I will ask this again, how is there dignity without a superior being giving one dignity?

Many in here have stated that they give themselves dignity by reflecting on their accomplishments. I would argue that's not real dignity, that's only a delusion of dignity.

Some say that friends give them their dignity, but I would argue that if a person derives dignity from the opinions of their friends then they don't really have dignity.

We only seem to have true dignity when someone greater than we are sets us above and apart from others. For instance, if there is a God and he favors us, then we really do have dignity. We have a reason to feel worthy, because God has said we are. And if God has said it, no one can ever take it away.

If there is no God, there is no basis for dignity, only the delusion of dignity.

As Ecurb pointed out...dignity is just a form of self esteem....self esteem is an inner state; not something that is handed to people.  So, a higher being existing or not has no baring on if one has dignity.

You can't pretend like anyone expects human emotions to be logical....

[Davin]

I don't see a use in dignity, nor why someone would find value in it.

[Asmodean]

I don't see a use in dignity, nor why someone would find value in it.

Oh, it's not something you can't do without, but sometimes being "dignified", or seeming to be so, can have an impact on how others percieve you.

[Whitney]

being "dignified", or seeming to be so, can have an impact on how others percieve you.

Which is another reason why it has nothing to do with a god existing or not.  It's just a social concept.

[Asmodean]

being "dignified", or seeming to be so, can have an impact on how others percieve you.

Which is another reason why it has nothing to do with a god existing or not.  It's just a social concept.

Of course... Nothing I know of actually requires a god, so that there has been my position from the start.

[Whitney]

Of course... Nothing I know of actually requires a god, so that there has been my position from the start.

Yup, that is the ultimate issue with any claim about the necessity of god existing.

[MadBomr101]

This whole "Dignity can only come from god" stalemate is doomed to go on forever since Egor's concept of dignity is completely dependant on the approval of a being none of us believes is real. 

Well, most of us.  There are a few theists in the neighborhood.

[Asmodean]

Well, most of us.  There are a few theists in the neighborhood.

...and at least one of those does not seem to connect dignity and god, or so I recall.

[Tristan Jay]

Good post, Tristan Jay

I try. 

Well, most of us.  There are a few theists in the neighborhood.

...and at least one of those does not seem to connect dignity and god, or so I recall.

Count me in there, too.