Re: What About Dignity?

[AnimatedDirt]

As a Christian here on HAF, I'd like to say that up to this point I've been fairly and kindly treated and I don't anticipate it changing anytime soon.

On the subject, I'll throw out a thought.  It's possible that Egor is equating the "Absolute Moral" argument with 'Dignity'.  I'm not certain it extends to simple ideas/feelings such as 'dignity'.  I've had a hard time following Egor's line of thinking and certainly disagree more than I've agreed so far.  Maybe if you, Egor, take your next step in questioning or continuing here, I may understand better later and maybe even chime in.

[Gawen]

Well, the fact that this is a discussion board...emphasis on 'discussion'. It's all well and good to come here and ask a question. I have no problem with that. But when the person who poses the question comes back with a number of assertions of an opposing POV and does nothing to back them up...well, what can I say? Seems to much like a drive-by and makes the OP and the 10 page thread virtually worthless.

[xSilverPhinx]

You asked the question, people answered, but there's still a problem of definition, IMO. You define the word 'dignity' in a way that excludes atheists, we point out the faulty logic but you still insist on maining your definition. So yes, that is having your cake and eating it.

But oh, well.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I think we should start a drinking game - every time Egor complains that he's going to get banned, even though no one is threatening to ban him, we all take a shot.

[The Magic Pudding]

You could have dignity from yourself, but that would be a kind of delusional dignity. You could have dignity from what others think about you, but that is capricious and can be taken away by those same people. Or you can have dignity from the judgment of a being who is greater than yourself, but that could only be God. So that's why I ask where an atheist derives their dignity. Assuming there is no God, can there really be any such thing as dignity or can there only be the illusion of dignity?

No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.

I saw a tiger look at my daughter when she was little, there were bars so I wasn't worried, it is creepy though, being seen as meat.
I find Egor's posts creepy, it seems I'm being being dehumanized, there is a basis for Egor having dignity, none for me though.
So I find myself in the company of an advanced being, I am now a relatively lower being.
People that think this way have killed so many more people than tigers.

[DeterminedJuliet]

You could have dignity from yourself, but that would be a kind of delusional dignity. You could have dignity from what others think about you, but that is capricious and can be taken away by those same people. Or you can have dignity from the judgment of a being who is greater than yourself, but that could only be God. So that's why I ask where an atheist derives their dignity. Assuming there is no God, can there really be any such thing as dignity or can there only be the illusion of dignity?

No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.

I saw a tiger look at my daughter when she was little, there were bars so I wasn't worried, it is creepy though, being seen as meat.
I find Egor's posts creepy, it seems I'm being being dehumanized, there is a basis for Egor having dignity, none for me though.
So I find myself in the company of an advanced being, I am now a relatively lower being.
People that think this way have killed so many more people than tigers.

Yeaaaah, I'm not all that convinced when he says he hates "atheism" and not "atheists". It gives me a feeling similar to when I hear homo-phobes say they "hate the sin, not the sinner" and then do everything they can to make a gay person's life miserable.

[Asmodean]

Yeaaaah, I'm not all that convinced when he says he hates "atheism" and not "atheists". It gives me a feeling similar to when I hear homo-phobes say they "hate the sin, not the sinner" and then do everything they can to make a gay person's life miserable.

...And then their LORD and MASTER sends them packing to the warm place to swirl on Asmo's Spit, because hate is akin to wrath and that one is a diddly sin... Eh... Doodly... No, that was not it either...  ???

[Sandra Craft]

I think we should start a drinking game - every time Egor complains that he's going to get banned, even though no one is threatening to ban him, we all take a shot.

I don't drink but I'm in if I can take a sip of sparkling cider each time he anticipates being banned.

I didn't want to go into my beliefs at all! I wanted to talk about y'all's beliefs.

If this were true, you wouldn't have spent so much time arguing that all the answers you got were invalid and "dignity" could only be defined by your frequently repeated standards (which seem to me to describe a state of grace more than dignity, but I suppose it would have been way too ridiculous to come into an atheist forum asking how atheists enter into a state of grace without a god).

Sounds to me like a case of:
"I'm not retreating, I am advancing in a different direction!"

I disagree (if you're implying that Egor is beating an ignominious retreat while proclaiming otherwise). Not only is discretion the better part of valor, but Egor's reason for letting this thread drop is reasonable: He has the answer that he was seeking (even if his understanding of that answer seems inadequate to me) and would like to proceed to a new topic.

I have to disagree with your disagreement, I think Ed was indeed choosing to advance in a different direction.  He got answers to his question (at least the only one that made even a little bit of sense) on page 1 and didn't drop it until page 10 when requests for logical definitions and substantion of claims were beyond his ability to produce. 

[Whitney]

As a Christian here on HAF, I'd like to say that up to this point I've been fairly and kindly treated and I don't anticipate it changing anytime soon.

Thanks AD

It's possible that Egor is equating the "Absolute Moral" argument with 'Dignity'. 

That's what I was thinking too but couldn't manage to connect the dots between the two concepts.

It very vaguely reminds me of the prostelization trick where the believer starts out by asking the nonbeliever if they have ever murdered, stolen, etc until they finally get to the one "deadly sin" everyone has to answer in the affirmative "lie" and then use that to twist a shaky proof about how all humans are sinners in need of salvation through christ.

[DeterminedJuliet]

It very vaguely reminds me of the prostelization trick where the believer starts out by asking the nonbeliever if they have ever murdered, stolen, etc until they finally get to the one "deadly sin" everyone has to answer in the affirmative "lie" and then use that to twist a shaky proof about how all humans are sinners in need of salvation through christ.

Sooooo, I guess if they admit to the murdering bit, they can skip right to needing Jesus?

[Recusant]

Sounds to me like a case of:
"I'm not retreating, I am advancing in a different direction!"

I disagree (if you're implying that Egor is beating an ignominious retreat while proclaiming otherwise). Not only is discretion the better part of valor, but Egor's reason for letting this thread drop is reasonable: He has the answer that he was seeking (even if his understanding of that answer seems inadequate to me) and would like to proceed to a new topic.

I have to disagree with your disagreement, I think Ed was indeed choosing to advance in a different direction.  He got answers to his question (at least the only one that made even a little bit of sense) on page 1 and didn't drop it until page 10 when requests for logical definitions and substantion of claims were beyond his ability to produce.

Heh, fair enough. 

[Guardian85]

I think we should start a drinking game - every time Egor complains that he's going to get banned, even though no one is threatening to ban him, we all take a shot.

I'm in! Can't drink on duty, but I'll catch up later.   

[Tank]

I think we should start a drinking game - every time Egor complains that he's going to get banned, even though no one is threatening to ban him, we all take a shot.

What are you trying to do DJ? Kill us all from liver failure!

[Gawen]

I think we should start a drinking game - every time Egor complains that he's going to get banned, even though no one is threatening to ban him, we all take a shot.

I like that....a lot.

[xSilverPhinx]

I think I'll pass...someone has to be alcohol free and alert.