Re: What About Dignity?

[Asmodean]

Asmo, you're blowing your dignity....ummm...

yeah....by whinging about not being able to give yourself self-gratification in one particular way. Bite the bullet...ahhhh...

yeah....and bake an apple pie.

Besides, it seems it would be difficult to breathe when you're bent over trying to gag yourself.

And you'll strain your back....

again...

*laffin*

What?! I have a back injury that does indeed stop me from knowing meself in the biblical sense 

[Whitney]

Tristan Mode: I would like to...sniffle, sniffle... just move on now in a dignified discourse. /Tristan mode

I'll let this slide since others have taken some shots at you too.

General warning to all...try not to be mean.

1.   Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2.   A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3.   Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4.   A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5.   Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6.   Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7.   If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.

stating the same thing again doesn't make it more true.

The above is the way I see it. I fully realize it is not a rock solid, Boolean logical analysis of dignity.

It's not even a liquified rock.

and But you or someone asked me to state exactly what I believe and this is it.

Ya. because otherwise you are preaching and have no business here.

And from the beginning, all I've asked is what foundation atheists have for their dignity.

the same "foundation" as every other human...including all theists other than yourself apparently.

I'm satisfied I have the answer to that question: from their own belief that they are good or from other people telling them they are good.

Who said dignity had anything to do with being "good"

As someone else already pointed out...are you just trying to say dignity instead of morals?  I would say that is a clever trick, but it's not.  The words have nothing to do with each other.

Anyone in here disagree? If not. Let's start a new thread.

How about you back up your claims; you have yet to justify your question in the OP as being anything more than baiting.

[Sandra Craft]

OK, so Egor has simply "made up" his own definition of dignity. Conversation over then.

Yep. And achieved nothing whatsoever in the process.

I'm sure it made Ed feel good about himself, that's something.

What?! I have a back injury that does indeed stop me from knowing meself in the biblical sense 

Have you tried yoga?

[Whitney]

OK, so Egor has simply "made up" his own definition of dignity. Conversation over then.

Yeah, I came to that conclusion too when I read his definition. It's a bit like me defining dignity as 'a real state of high position and worth that only comes from looking at the universe in a rational and scientific way and by not worshipping any supernatural power or having any lord or master', and then starting a thread asking how can any Christian have any dignity?

Obviously they can't because I've made up my own definition of dignity that automatically precludes Christians. It's crap logic.

That actually would be a valid question (though not worded that way, lol), for anyone who is a biblical literalist.  One is asked to humble themselves in front of god and humble (not proud) is the opposite of dignity (high self esteem).

James 4:6 ESV
But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

here's the rest of the related verses for "humble" http://www.openbible.info/topics/being_humble

Makes me wonder why Egor is so obsessed with the idea of being dignified....

[Asmodean]

Have you tried yoga?

Too easy to do more harm than good. It was actually quite broken, you see, my back was. And in the process of ruining it, I've also killed one of the disks between the vertebrae and nearly killed another.

[Tristan Jay]

Tristan Mode: I would like to...sniffle, sniffle... just move on now in a dignified discourse. /Tristan mode

I'll let this slide since others have taken some shots at you too.

General warning to all...try not to be mean.

Hmmm...I'm not sure how I offended Egor, if I did, my apologies to you, Egor.  PM me and let me know where my etiquette failed for your liking, and I'll try to do better by yourself and other Christians.  My rejection of or disliking of God is not meant to be a rejection of or disliking of individual Christians...

I figure at this point we have Egor's outline for the basis of his conclusions, and Egor has some feedback on how to refine it.  I personally have difficulty with these logic/proof structures, I'm way out of practice (and my mind is too distracted) to follow through on it.  But I'll try and follow it as best I can.  

Just to follow up in a straightforward manner, Egor, is this 7-point logic construct open for refinement, or is this finalized enough to your liking?  Obviously at this point there are reservations from people that it is conclusive, what's next?

[Egor]

OK, so Egor has simply "made up" his own definition of dignity. Conversation over then.

Yep. And achieved nothing whatsoever in the process.

Yes, I did, actually. I got all the responses I was looking for. All I ever wanted to know in this string is what atheists base their dignity on. And the overall answer is that you give yourselves dignity.

[Davin]

OK, so Egor has simply "made up" his own definition of dignity. Conversation over then.

Yep. And achieved nothing whatsoever in the process.

Yes, I did, actually. I got all the responses I was looking for. All I ever wanted to know in this string is what atheists base their dignity on. And the overall answer is that you give yourselves dignity.

Which is no different than a Christian or any other theist.

[Egor]

I'll let this slide since others have taken some shots at you too.

General warning to all...try not to be mean.

Thank you. And I will try.

Ya. because otherwise you are preaching and have no business here.

I didn't want to go into my beliefs at all! I wanted to talk about y'all's beliefs.

How about you back up your claims; you have yet to justify your question in the OP as being anything more than baiting.

Baiting nothing. What are you trying to do, manipulate things into some kind of breakage of the rules? Whether you ban a person outright or manipulate the person into being banned makes no difference. If you can’t take the heat, ban the theist seems to be the way you atheists behave. All you can tolerate is the weak Christians who come in, get offended, and run off. Well, I don’t run off. So let’s recap: What did I ask in the OP? Here, let me restate:

I'm wondering at what point atheists stop being atheists and start believing in God again. What I mean is surely you have dignity, yes? So where does that dignity come from. If atheism is true, that is if there is no God, how can any human being have any dignity?

I asked you a couple of questions. I wanted your comments. I didn’t make any claims at all. Everyone seems to want to try to throw it back on me rather than answering a simple freakin question. Because you can’t answer it in the way you would like, can you?

I even offered to end this string. Why keep it going? I feel you have answered the question the best you’re ever going to answer it.

You (meaning atheists in this string) have basically rested on the notion that a person has dignity if they give themselves dignity.

If that’s not correct, then correct me. Don’t get all in a tiff and start talking “baiting” and “preaching” etc. It’s your forum. You can ban me without any reason at all.

So, do you have an answer? Do you want to correct my opinion of where you get your dignity? Do you want to just end this string?

I’ll tell you what. I’ll even go one step further. You’re the administrator; you’ve involved yourself in this discussion. So, as the leader of this forum, I will take your response as my final answer to the questions I stated in the OP. You should have the last word.

I, for one, have no reason to respond in this string anymore. So, don’t say I’m running off, because I’m not. This string has served its purpose in my opinion, especially with your last word on the subject.

I’ll let things cool down a bit, maybe respond to some other people’s posts (although that always seems to end up making them my posts), and then I’ll ask another question in another string, because I have a burning question I’m just dying to ask you all.

So, I’m out. But I look forward to reading your reply.

Ed 

[Guardian85]

Sounds to me like a case of:
"I'm not retreating, I am advancing in a different direction!"

[Recusant]

If you can't take the heat, ban the theist seems to be the way you atheists behave. All you can tolerate is the weak Christians who come in, get offended, and run off.

Egor, though Whitney most likely will speak for herself, I'd like to comment on this.  I've been a member here for years, and have observed Christians come and stay here, as well as drift away (and occasionally get banned; there have been several atheists who have gotten themselves banned as well). As far as I can tell, Christians are welcome here, not merely tolerated; I personally value Christian members because they often create threads like this one which serve as an excellent basis for discussion. When you were here before, as far as I know you're the one who decided to leave. Your simplistic "you atheists" comment is inaccurate and fatuous.

Well, I don't run off.

Good. Observe the rules of this place, and you'll be here as long as you like: Post the toughest questions you can think of while maintaining a civil manner and refraining from preaching.

You (meaning atheists in this string) have basically rested on the notion that a person has dignity if they give themselves dignity.

Heh, again with the simplistic approach. As far as I can see, all that the atheist members have done in this thread is agree with the recognized definition of the word "dignity." This includes not only the bearing exhibited by individuals, but also the esteem and respect of other people, as well as honor conferred by some form of authority. It's not as if this understanding of the definition of "dignity" is exclusive to atheists, Egor, though it seems like you've tried to characterize it as such.

* * *

Sounds to me like a case of:
"I'm not retreating, I am advancing in a different direction!"

I disagree (if you're implying that Egor is beating an ignominious retreat while proclaiming otherwise). Not only is discretion the better part of valor, but Egor's reason for letting this thread drop is reasonable: He has the answer that he was seeking (even if his understanding of that answer seems inadequate to me) and would like to proceed to a new topic.

[Guardian85]

It was intended as a humourous comment, rather than a serious critique.
But your point is acnowledged.

[Whitney]

Egor, I don't care if you continue this thread because there is nothing more to discus.  We have figured out that you like to redefine words to mean something that they don't.  Pretty pointless.

Presenting "dignity" as something that must be given to someone and then going on to say that it must be god is the part I am calling preaching.  If you're going to state something you have to be able to logically back it up and your 7 part "proof" was shown to be severely faulty...yet you exhibited no care to defend it further even after admitting that it needed work.

Play the persecution card all you want...it only makes you look bad to those that know how things really work around here.  If any other theist actually agrees with you on your understanding of dignity (and I highly doubt it) they are free to jump in and try to explain how such a position makes sense.

If you were actually in any danger of being banned in the near future it would have been made clear.  And, for the record, I don't have to build up a case or manipulate to ban you ; I personally chose (along with the direction of early members/moderators) to make HAF a place where everyone is treated fairly under the rules and I am confident that any observer who isn't already biased against atheists would see that we do a pretty good job of sticking to being fair across the board (theist or atheist). 

And I don't speak for anyone but myself...I'm not the "leader" of any member here and anyone who so desires can have the last word (and since threads are rarely locked the actual last word could be months from now...or even years when someone performs thread necromancy).

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I have a burning question I'm just dying to ask you all.

By all means, ask it. No reason to hurt yourself.  I, for one, am very interested.

[Asmodean]

I am confident that any observer who isn't already biased against atheists would see that we do a pretty good job of sticking to being fair across the board (theist or atheist). 

An exceptional reminder of that exists in this very thread. The Asmo was taking his Asmo-ness too far, and Tank, he was onto it and very fast.

(I did, however, send Tank a message asking him to evaluate the percieved level of offensiveness in what I wrote at about the same time as he posted his comment, so it was a short and easy-to-close case)