Your kids in a godless world

[Willow]

I would not allow my children into an environment where serious adults presented traditional myths as though they were meaningful truths.
I do dispel Santa and the Tooth Fairy when it arises.  I have told my 5 year old that when he does start to loose his teeth, then we can do the "Tooth Fairy" thing, just that he will know it's really Mummy swapping his tooth for a coin while he sleeps.

Surely the neutral approach to teaching children what they should or should not believe is to question everything, and to learn that sometimes grown ups do present made up or traditional stories as if they were true.

Willow.

I agree, Willow.  There is no reason to ever lie to a child.   Tooth fairy or worst; the obnoxious stark tale.

Just tell them the truth.  It's NOT going to ruin their childhood.

Blimey, how spectacularly miserable!

It must be huge consolation to your children that the reason Santa didn't come was that Mummy doesn't believe in him.

So, do you not allow fiction into your house either. No fairy tales. No imaginary play. No magic tricks. No Jokes. This is ALL 'lying' and a fun and natural part of learning... And sometimes (hideous though it may sound) just about having fun.

You are of course entitled to your militant anti-funism if you so choose, but I can tell this is a winless argument so I won't labour the point.

...But really...??!!

We do have Christmas presents and stories.  They even make up their own stories sometimes, what with knowing that you can.
We happily go goblin hunting in the certainty that they are make believe and enjoy trying to prove to one another they exist by way of mysterious orienteering signs or piles of tree clippings, clearly goblin nests.

We can still enjoy the stories without trying to make our children truely believe.

"Santa won't bring you any presents if you don't do as I say now!"  That's anti fun.

[Siz]

I would not allow my children into an environment where serious adults presented traditional myths as though they were meaningful truths.
I do dispel Santa and the Tooth Fairy when it arises.  I have told my 5 year old that when he does start to loose his teeth, then we can do the "Tooth Fairy" thing, just that he will know it's really Mummy swapping his tooth for a coin while he sleeps.

Surely the neutral approach to teaching children what they should or should not believe is to question everything, and to learn that sometimes grown ups do present made up or traditional stories as if they were true.

Willow.

I agree, Willow.  There is no reason to ever lie to a child.   Tooth fairy or worst; the obnoxious stark tale.

Just tell them the truth.  It's NOT going to ruin their childhood.

Blimey, how spectacularly miserable!

It must be huge consolation to your children that the reason Santa didn't come was that Mummy doesn't believe in him.

So, do you not allow fiction into your house either. No fairy tales. No imaginary play. No magic tricks. No Jokes. This is ALL 'lying' and a fun and natural part of learning... And sometimes (hideous though it may sound) just about having fun.

You are of course entitled to your militant anti-funism if you so choose, but I can tell this is a winless argument so I won't labour the point.

...But really...??!!

We do have Christmas presents and stories.  They even make up their own stories sometimes, what with knowing that you can.
We happily go goblin hunting in the certainty that they are make believe and enjoy trying to prove to one another they exist by way of mysterious orienteering signs or piles of tree clippings, clearly goblin nests.

We can still enjoy the stories without trying to make our children truely believe.

"Santa won't bring you any presents if you don't do as I say now!"  That's anti fun.

One doesn't HAVE to usurp Santas good will for ones own advantage.

What's wrong with making them truly believe? I guess you could argue that at some point the horrible truth will be discovered amid disappointment at being misled by parents. OK, I'll buy that if I must - it's a risk. But do you suffix all of your stories/fantasies/magic with "That's not real, you know"? Surely that's taking away one of the magical wonders of being a child. Do you not have happy memories of Santa/tooth fairy/magic/goblin hunting yourself? And do you now have a mistrust of your parents as a result of being misled about these things? I don't. I love and appreciate the efforts that were made to make life magical for me.

We have a whole adult lifetime to be cynical about the greyness of reality. Let's not steal the colour from our children too.

[Asmodean]

Do you not have happy memories of Santa/tooth fairy/magic/goblin hunting yourself?

Me, I have no such memories at all.

And do you now have a mistrust of your parents as a result of being misled about these things? I don't. I love and appreciate the efforts that were made to make life magical for me.

I have a mistrust of my parents because of everything I've been intentionally misled about.

We have a whole adult lifetime to be cynical about the greyness of reality. Let's not steal the colour from our children too.

Oh, there are a lot of cool and "colorful" things in reality. Astronomy, for instance. Imagine, every one of those tiny specklets of light in the night sky that is not an aircraft is a star. A giant ball of gas lightyears away. And some of those balls of gas rise above the horizons of planets so far away, we didn't even bother to give them cool names. If you want to stretch your imagination muscles, why not try to picture in your head a sunrise on an alien world..? To me that is, and always was, far cooler than an old man in a red suit.

[Siz]

I have a mistrust of my parents because of everything I've been intentionally misled about.

That's not really Santas fault is it?!

We have a whole adult lifetime to be cynical about the greyness of reality. Let's not steal the colour from our children too.

Oh, there are a lot of cool and "colorful" things in reality. Astronomy, for instance. Imagine, every one of those tiny specklets of light in the night sky that is not an aircraft is a star. A giant ball of gas lightyears away. And some of those balls of gas rise above the horizons of planets so far away, we didn't even bother to give them cool names. If you want to stretch your imagination muscles, why not try to picture in your head a sunrise on an alien world..? To me that is, and always was, far cooler than an old man in a red suit.
[/quote]

Agreed. But we can enjoy fantastic stories too.

[Davin]

And do you now have a mistrust of your parents as a result of being misled about these things? I don't. I love and appreciate the efforts that were made to make life magical for me.

I have a mistrust of my parents because of everything I've been intentionally misled about.

I do not think that mistrust in parents is a bad thing, I think before kids move out on their own they should already be questioning all authority.

We have a whole adult lifetime to be cynical about the greyness of reality. Let's not steal the colour from our children too.

Oh, there are a lot of cool and "colorful" things in reality. Astronomy, for instance. Imagine, every one of those tiny specklets of light in the night sky that is not an aircraft is a star. A giant ball of gas lightyears away. And some of those balls of gas rise above the horizons of planets so far away, we didn't even bother to give them cool names. If you want to stretch your imagination muscles, why not try to picture in your head a sunrise on an alien world..? To me that is, and always was, far cooler than an old man in a red suit.

I completely agree. Also children can have and use their imagination about things that aren't real, while remaining grounded in reality.

I would not allow my children into an environment where serious adults presented traditional myths as though they were meaningful truths.
I do dispel Santa and the Tooth Fairy when it arises.  I have told my 5 year old that when he does start to loose his teeth, then we can do the "Tooth Fairy" thing, just that he will know it's really Mummy swapping his tooth for a coin while he sleeps.

Surely the neutral approach to teaching children what they should or should not believe is to question everything, and to learn that sometimes grown ups do present made up or traditional stories as if they were true.

Willow.

I agree, Willow.  There is no reason to ever lie to a child.   Tooth fairy or worst; the obnoxious stark tale.

Just tell them the truth.  It's NOT going to ruin their childhood.

Blimey, how spectacularly miserable!

I was never told, nor did I ever believe that Santa was real and my childhood was not miserable. I could still watch Santa Christmas shows and be entertained and imagine if the guy were real. This idea that not believing in Santa equals a miserable childhood, just seems too ridiculous to me.

What's wrong with making them truly believe?

Because children are supposed to be learning from their guardians about the world and getting children to believe in something that has no evidence for it, is against that goal. If you want rational children who value evidence and logic over make believe and superstition, then why make them believe in Santa? A child has an amazing imagination, not tricking them to beleive in Santa will not ruin it. However, teaching a child that it's OK to believe in false things from an early age for the "magic" of it, I think is putting the wrong idea into their heads durring a critical time of mental development.

[Siz]

And do you now have a mistrust of your parents as a result of being misled about these things? I don't. I love and appreciate the efforts that were made to make life magical for me.

I have a mistrust of my parents because of everything I've been intentionally misled about.

I do not think that mistrust in parents is a bad thing, I think before kids move out on their own they should already be questioning all authority.

We have a whole adult lifetime to be cynical about the greyness of reality. Let's not steal the colour from our children too.

Oh, there are a lot of cool and "colorful" things in reality. Astronomy, for instance. Imagine, every one of those tiny specklets of light in the night sky that is not an aircraft is a star. A giant ball of gas lightyears away. And some of those balls of gas rise above the horizons of planets so far away, we didn't even bother to give them cool names. If you want to stretch your imagination muscles, why not try to picture in your head a sunrise on an alien world..? To me that is, and always was, far cooler than an old man in a red suit.

I completely agree. Also children can have and use their imagination about things that aren't real, while remaining grounded in reality.

I would not allow my children into an environment where serious adults presented traditional myths as though they were meaningful truths.
I do dispel Santa and the Tooth Fairy when it arises.  I have told my 5 year old that when he does start to loose his teeth, then we can do the "Tooth Fairy" thing, just that he will know it's really Mummy swapping his tooth for a coin while he sleeps.

Surely the neutral approach to teaching children what they should or should not believe is to question everything, and to learn that sometimes grown ups do present made up or traditional stories as if they were true.

Willow.

I agree, Willow.  There is no reason to ever lie to a child.   Tooth fairy or worst; the obnoxious stark tale.

Just tell them the truth.  It's NOT going to ruin their childhood.

Blimey, how spectacularly miserable!

I was never told, nor did I ever believe that Santa was real and my childhood was not miserable. I could still watch Santa Christmas shows and be entertained and imagine if the guy were real. This idea that not believing in Santa equals a miserable childhood, just seems too ridiculous to me.

What's wrong with making them truly believe?

Because children are supposed to be learning from their guardians about the world and getting children to believe in something that has no evidence for it, is against that goal. If you want rational children who value evidence and logic over make believe and superstition, then why make them believe in Santa? A child has an amazing imagination, not tricking them to beleive in Santa will not ruin it. However, teaching a child that it's OK to believe in false things from an early age for the "magic" of it, I think is putting the wrong idea into their heads durring a critical time of mental development.

It's the fact that some of the contributors here actively reject Santa from their homes that I think is miserable. I've no doubt that children above a certain age don't believe at all but still enjoy maintaining the fantasy. This goes to show how fun it is in any case.

Do you have children Davin?

[Davin]

It's the fact that some of the contributors here actively reject Santa from their homes that I think is miserable.

All I've seen is that they don't want the kids to believe in Santa, not that they're banning Santa from their home.

I've no doubt that children above a certain age don't believe at all but still enjoy maintaining the fantasy. This goes to show how fun it is in any case.

So promoting the belief in something that isn't real is unecessary because the same beneficial effect can be acheived without the deception.

Do you have children Davin?

I do not.

[Sweetdeath]

Wow..  I'm seriously glad you're aren't my parent, scissorlegs.

I have the biggest imagination still at 25. I read sci fi and fantasy novels, and play tons of videogames.  I still decorated a xmas tree as a kid with my mum and dad, and knowing my gifts came from them meant a lot.

The assumption that a child without santa or tooth fairy  LIES told as truth being "miserable" is truly laughable.

My mum read me fairy tales all the time.

A child is suppose to look up to their parents.  How hypocritical is it  to teach a child that lying is bad whilst lying right to their face.  *chortle*

[Too Few Lions]

gotta confess I don't see any problem with goblins, santa or the tooth fairy. Although I don't like the commercialism of xmas and that parents often feel forced to spend lots of money buying presents for their children that they can't always afford. I'm not gonna pin that wholly on santa though, the poor guy had a hard enough time after 9/11 (he was distraught, haven't you seen the pictures?)

I would worry sometimes we may be guilty of throwing the make-believe babies out with the bathwater. I think it's quite funny that kids can have this whole other world filled with make-believe characters. Children work out that Santa and the tooth-fairy are just their parents soon enough, noone's been hurt. At the end of the day noone's ever flown planes into buildings because the they found out that the tooth fairy doesn't exist, these seem like pretty harmless myths to me.

[Siz]

Davin,

So promoting the belief in something that isn't real is unecessary because the same beneficial effect can be acheived without the deception.

There is no substitute for the wonder of magic and fairies and fantasies. You take that away and you've destroyed everything that is special about being a child.

All I've seen is that they don't want the kids to believe in Santa, not that they're banning Santa from their home.

And the difference is...?

Do you have children Davin?

I do not.

Thanks for your insightful comments.

[Sweetdeath]

Scissorlegs, no one is saying to take away fairy tales and throw them in a concrete room.  Just don't lie to a kid about fairy tales and say they are truth.

I had probs in grade school cuz my parents didnt lie to me, but all the other kids were SERIOUS BUSINESS that santa was  REAL and one could tell them he was not. e__e
Once again, I live my parents and respect them way more because they didn't need to make up lies.

I have an issue that most parents feel an obligation to lie to their kids and see it as harmless fun. 

[Davin]

Davin,

So promoting the belief in something that isn't real is unecessary because the same beneficial effect can be acheived without the deception.

There is no substitute for the wonder of magic and fairies and fantasies. You take that away and you've destroyed everything that is special about being a child.

Who is talking about taking that away? I'm just advocating that one doesn't need to promote that some of those things are real. A child can have the imagination, fun and make believe without also deceiving them.

All I've seen is that they don't want the kids to believe in Santa, not that they're banning Santa from their home.

And the difference is...?

Like the example I gave: I never believed in Santa, but I still watched and read fictional tales of the guy. That is different than people not allowing anything Santa in their home.

Do you have children Davin?

I do not.

Thanks for your insightful comments.

You're welcome. I do hope that this isn't the thinly veiled appeal to authority that it seems to be.

[Too Few Lions]

As an aside, I quite like the idea that you could let your child believe that Santa and the tooth fairy exist while expressly telling them that God and Jesus do not! That would so wind up any Christian teachers at school. I find it amusing that a lot of Christians seem to not like Santa these days, as they feel children nowadays associate xmas more with this *made up* character than with the *not so made up honest* Jesus.

[Davin]

I would worry sometimes we may be guilty of throwing the make-believe babies out with the bathwater. I think it's quite funny that kids can have this whole other world filled with make-believe characters. Children work out that Santa and the tooth-fairy are just their parents soon enough, noone's been hurt. At the end of the day noone's ever flown planes into buildings because the they found out that the tooth fairy doesn't exist, these seem like pretty harmless myths to me.

When my family was much less fortunate (we were broke), some people came by dressed as Santa and his wife and gave my family some presents. What I took from that wasn't that some guy with an endless supply of toys happened upon my family and dropped some them off because I had been good, I took it that two people really wanted to make some poor people's families have it a little better. I think it was better to be exposed at an early age to the act of compassion than to believe that just by being good, it entitles me to gifts.

[Sweetdeath]

I really like that response, Davin!  Teach children compassion and kindness, not "be good and mommy will buy you an xbox"
That's lazy parents.  Molding a child at a young age is crutial to them growing into generous, tolerant adult.