"Ask a Christian!"

[xSilverPhinx]

What about your Saturday?
(My grandparents are 7th day Adventists...)

Imagine that.  Me too.  I know many SDA's that dread Saturdays simply because they are doing the "Sabbath" thing out of a 'must do' rather than a 'I get to...'.  I have a few responsibilities in the morning at church which isn't the greatest at the moment of waking up, but after I'm up, it's all gravy.  My Saturday's are filled with lots of time with friends and family.  I can't claim to keep the Sabbath perfectly, but it is a time I look forward to all week.  (I don't necessarily look forward to getting up early, but it's part of the day)  I get to sleep in on Sundays. 

I don't really know what other SDAs are doing on Saturdays, but I'd risk saying that my grandparents take on Saturdays are on the slightly extreme side. No TV  and no (sorta) house chores.

[Tank]

I don't function before 10am.  X_x

Just like my son and wife! I tend to rapidly lose functionality after 10pm!

[Too Few Lions]

I don't function before 10am.  X_x

I don't function before midday! Still, I drink plenty of coffe and hope no-one notices at work...

[xSilverPhinx]

I think that any hour before 12 pm can rightfully be called an 'ungodly hour', in fact, I've never seen a better usage for the word.

[Too Few Lions]

I think that any hour before 12 pm can rightfully be called an 'ungodly hour', in fact, I've never seen a better usage for the word.

hehe in that case I really should like mornings more. Every hour should be an ungodly hour!

[Sweetdeath]

Yes, seriously. I don't know how people who have to be at work by 9am do it.

I used to have to work 10-4 (great file clerk job) but I lived an hour and a half away. T_T

[AnimatedDirt]

I don't really know what other SDAs are doing on Saturdays, but I'd risk saying that my grandparents take on Saturdays are on the slightly extreme side. No TV  and no (sorta) house chores.

That's pretty typical.  That in and of itself is not extreme.  The thinking is to use Friday (the preparation day) to do the house chores etc.  I'd say the "extreme" SDA's prepare their food on Friday to not cook on the Sabbath.  To try and keep from secular things...T.V., computers,... but that isn't to say those things cannot be used for a better purpose on a Sabbath.  I think that's a bit much (the not cooking thing) but each person is certainly able to make their on decision on what is lawful to do on the Sabbath.  It may be that cooking stresses them out too much and so it seems as too much "work" to be doing.  Having the food ready to go is actually pretty cool.  We have basically the example of what JC did on the Sabbath.  He healed people, usually first the physical healing (lame walk, blind see...and even feeding) then the spiritual healing.  That and the, "It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" from JC too.  Couple that quote with his actions and I think it makes a pretty clear picture of how to best keep the Sabbath.

[Too Few Lions]

Yes, seriously. I don't know how people who have to be at work by 9am do it.

I used to have to work 10-4 (great file clerk job) but I lived an hour and a half away. T_T

I live an 8 minute walk away from my office and a 4 minute cycle (I've timed them!) It's the only way I can do 9-5, I roll out of bed around 8.40, have a quick wash and bite to eat, then walk into work.

That and it rains here most days (today it's seriously been like a monsoon), and I really don't like getting wet, so having a job near my home suits me perfectly. Although I guess I'd still rather not have to work, there are so many more interesting things to do.

[Sweetdeath]

Lucky monkey!

[xSilverPhinx]

I think that any hour before 12 pm can rightfully be called an 'ungodly hour', in fact, I've never seen a better usage for the word.

hehe in that case I really should like mornings more. Every hour should be an ungodly hour!

Think of it this way: at least there are fewer and fewer godly church bells ringing at a certain times to signal godly times of the day, including the appropriate and godly hour to get out of bed.

I don't really know what other SDAs are doing on Saturdays, but I'd risk saying that my grandparents take on Saturdays are on the slightly extreme side. No TV  and no (sorta) house chores.

That's pretty typical.  That in and of itself is not extreme.  The thinking is to use Friday (the preparation day) to do the house chores etc.  I'd say the "extreme" SDA's prepare their food on Friday to not cook on the Sabbath.  To try and keep from secular things...T.V., computers,... but that isn't to say those things cannot be used for a better purpose on a Sabbath.  I think that's a bit much (the not cooking thing) but each person is certainly able to make their on decision on what is lawful to do on the Sabbath.  It may be that cooking stresses them out too much and so it seems as too much "work" to be doing.  Having the food ready to go is actually pretty cool.  We have basically the example of what JC did on the Sabbath.  He healed people, usually first the physical healing (lame walk, blind see...and even feeding) then the spiritual healing.  That and the, "It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" from JC too.  Couple that quote with his actions and I think it makes a pretty clear picture of how to best keep the Sabbath.

I have no problem whatsoever with the idea that there's a day in which you shouldn't do any house chores. I would readily incorporate that into my way of life and thinking

But as for the secular things such as TV and computers (which they don't have anyways) would make Saturdays noticeably different for me. 

[Sweetdeath]

No computers?  Yeah, no fucking thanks. 
What do you do; sit in candlelight and count the tiles on the floor?

[xSilverPhinx]

No computers?  Yeah, no fucking thanks. 
What do you do; sit in candlelight and count the tiles on the floor?

Well...there was this old typewriter from ancient times past just lying around...



They were allowed to go out (and usually did) to get a coffee or something. Otherwise it's a good time to catch up on one's reading.

[AnimatedDirt]

I have no problem whatsoever with the idea that there's a day in which you shouldn't do any house chores. I would readily incorporate that into my way of life and thinking

But as for the secular things such as TV and computers (which they don't have anyways) would make Saturdays noticeably different for me. 

I'd like you to ponder your choice of words above.  "shouldn't do house chores" and then "I would readily incorporate".

Therein lies the complete difference of the true Gospel and the false gospel which so many Christians (and those that criticize them) fail to understand as did the Jews and their extra laws.  The false is done out of obligation and the true is done out of love.

More on the TV and Computers later. 

[Sweetdeath]

No computers?  Yeah, no fucking thanks. 
What do you do; sit in candlelight and count the tiles on the floor?

Well...there was this old typewriter from ancient times past just lying around...



They were allowed to go out (and usually did) to get a coffee or something. Otherwise it's a good time to catch up on one's reading.

Pfff, I read a lot to, but I watch Jimmy fallon and Simpsons every night, so yeah.
I guess some people will believe what they are doing is right/holy. o_o

[Cforcerunner]

Oh wow.....Sorry for being away everyone

I've been busy taking care of life for the last couple of weeks and for whatever reason, my email forward for thread responses suddenly stopped, so this forum has completely slipped my mind! But I am glad to see this thread has taken a life of it's own and I'll review any questions I've missed lately.

Ok, I've held off from approaching this, and I want to try to be fair about my questions to those Christians who I am impressed with, despite myself, for putting their necks out here in a place that rejects God.

I've read some of the back and forth stuff on this thread, but both sides of the argument really lose me when they get into finely tuning the details of their evidence.  Pretend I'm a little bit dumb, or highly distractible.  Brevity and clarity is good.

What I am struggling with is the version of God as he is depicted in the Bible in general, and how he comes across through Christian interpretation, explanation, ect.  When I throw away those preconceived notions, I can let go of my expectations of God, and consequently my loathing of him.

The promise of a personal relationship concerns and troubles me.  I've been in a human-to-human relationships, and have been called out on some things that are personally difficult for me (because of my personality type and/or certain problems).  A couple of things are trust and consistency, off the top of my head, as I'm typing this out.

Trust: We give out a certain amount of trust, in the hope that it will be affirmed as wisely-placed trust.  I had trust withdrawn from me because I didn't measure up to that trust, and in some ways I didn't fully understand that trust that was invested in me.  An active, personally committed God should have an understanding of each individual human's ability to trust (since he knows everything about us, as established Christian perspective).  My trust has been withdrawn, because he hasn't measured up to my trust.  Let me just state before I go further, I've heard in the past the concept that "Sometime God answers by not answering."  

This is also part of why trust has been withdrawn, I'm not good with relationships because I sometimes don't answer, and it's been made clear to me that it's not ok!  This leads into another question: if it's not ok for me, why is it ok for God?  Creating the universe and making it "good" is not an acceptable answer; any reasonable human with a conscience would feel responsible for something they created and probably feel guilt for when there are problems with that creation that causes harm to others.  If we feel guilt, and God doesn't because he is confident in his own perfect, what does that say about his ability to reflect on his behavior, and the work that he does (or fails to do)?  And what does that say about his ability to really appreciate a situation, if we experience guilt but he doesn't (keeping in mind that he is capable of everything, according to the paradigm I'm using to understand him).

I was going to go into consistency, but I'm running out of steam at this point, I will keep it simple and just say that he comes across as nothing less than supremely inconsistent.  Genocide is okay for him to order, sanction, and implement; but we're monsters if we engage in such behavior.  I'm not allowed to be shy in this world he's allowed to develop, which demands that you must be outgoing to be successful; but he never talks to us, or shows up to have his picture taken, and that's ok because he's God!

Why is he better than us, when we can accept and love people who are guilty of "sin" (and some of the sins such as homosexuality do not seem harmful to others, and he does not clarify for us).

Why isn't he clear?  He can do anything, and he sacrificed his son/himself to himself, for the sake of our souls.  That's supposed to be important, so why didn't he choose a better time to do all that stuff?  The whole planet is wired for surveillance right now, why be subtle when clarity is so important (remember, it's our immortal souls!).

Why did he create Hell, and the the god damned Devil?  Let me make this clear: I would not create hell and the Devil.  All the stuff before this is confusing enough, before you add Hell and the Devil.  I hate to say it, but I believe there are plenty of other humans, including myself, who can think of a better form of justice than him; that is more fair, merciful, reasonable, and able to be understood and clear and consistent.  Given that, wouldn't he be doing himself a huge favor by streamlining and reorganizing a lot of stuff?!

I'm really angry, in case you can't tell.  I've been trying to swallow my anger, and communicate with him, asking him for reciprocation in communication.  Well, now I want a damned burning piece of shrubbery talking to me while I'm sober, and say to me, "Ok, I get why you're confused, let me show you some pieces of the puzzle to help you sort through it, let me know if that helps make things more clear," because that is what a kindly, friendly human being would do for someone they cared about!!  

Post script: Eh, sorry about the length of my post, BTW, I know I asked for brevity and simplicity, then I went ahead and did this.  There are a lot of things I'm steamed about, though.

This is certainly a lot of questions, and honestly wouldn't be productive if I went down the list, answering one after the other. I have always enjoyed the saying that "facts are great, opinions are great....But nothing is greater than when both remain distinct from the other".

It's important to clarify that I'm not here to tell you what to believe in, but I answer questions of my belief, and if you have any constructive criticism of what I believe in as Christian, I am all ears. But the first step in that is to (1) know what I believe and being careful not to assume what I believe in, and then (2) tell me why you don't like/partake in that particular view and this or that is why....From there, I will be more than happy to listen/discuss our differences in opinion and find out what similarities in values each of our views have and where aspects can be agreed to be disagreed upon.      

I understand your point of view. And from what I have experienced, one of the biggest problems skeptics have against Christianity and theism at large is that they see religious interpretation of the divine as not being mapped out to their liking or from what they hear about it, it's not all that great. For some, the idea of religion is similar to a movie review that they have heard so many talk about, and for them, it's a skip. This is why going about and telling skeptics all the great perks and benefit plans Christianity has to offer is usually not very productive, because such discussions have absolutely nothing to do with whether it's true or not.

I can illustrate my point like this: the common conversation between the apologist and the skeptic.

Skeptic: "Ehh....I don't believe the bible to be true. It's not even consistent."

Apologist: "We'll I disagree, did you know this and that fact, I bet you did not.

Skeptic: "This is not true....And you're part of the discovery institute."

This is a conversation that is going to lack any intellectual substance, and here is why: If I was a New Age Neopaganist whose belief is loosely based upon the Lord of the Rings trilogy, it may very well have grand and intriguing consistency to my mystical story, but does that, therefore make it true. Or any more true? The skeptic does not believe the bible to be true, and although consistency might help the bible as a cohesive story, it is irrelevant to the question at hand. Regardless, it is clear that the skeptic is just not interested in the first place. Think of your friend who hates nothing more than scary movies, who has found him or herself in the unfortunate position of becoming dragged along with your group of buddies on the intent of picking out a scary movie for everyone to watch tonight. They pull a horror movie here and another there, and for some peculiar reason, this friend always seems to find something wrong with each and every movie selected. Your friend's sway has nothing to do with the specific movie and has everything to do with their innate presumptions regarding the horror movie genre.

And this comes full circle as to why I can't just go down a laundry list and tell you this or that and have the truth of Christianity spring upon you. Feel free to repost more specific questions regarding my personal beliefs, and we can discuss our difference in views instead of me speaking in terms of "why does God does this/that".  

For example, your question about hell. Your first question could be, do you believe in hell?...What exactly is hell? Who goes and who doesn't? Do I think a hell is necessary for divine justice?, ect. All would be great questions to ask me. And after I tell you my specific views on the subject, you can (and encourage you to do so) tell me why you don't sit well with that particular stance. Such as pointing out something of common values. For example, you could say something like, "Well...I don't believe people should be punished just for believing in something different from myself, and from what Christians have told me, hell severely punishes those who aren't Christian, this is not at all right". This would leave us with a very fascinating topic to be discussed.