Why Did God Have to Make Evil?

[Gawen]

Why must omniscience be continual? Can you give a reason, rather than (or at least in addition to) pronouncements of failure?

Talk about splitting hairs...

No, let's talk about the several arguments I put up in refutation of your position.

Sure, which pages are they on?

[Voter]

I don't know. The Hebrew Bible lays it all down. It's pretty much cut and dried. It seems to me with your "The Way" religion, you have created for yourselves a false Yahweh. Obviously such a group has a deep seated hatred against the True Yahweh of the Jews...

Care to support this?
Here's an excerpt from a Jewish page on the nature of man:
People have the ability to choose which impulse to follow: the yetzer tov or the yetzer ra. That is the heart of the Jewish understanding of free will. The Talmud notes that all people are descended from Adam, so no one can blame his own wickedness on his ancestry. On the contrary, we all have the ability to make our own choices, and we will all be held responsible for the choices we make.

And on the nature of God:
G-d is Omnipresent
G-d is in all places at all times. He fills the universe and exceeds its scope. He is always near for us to call upon in need, and He sees all that we do. Closely tied in with this idea is the fact that G-d is universal. He is not just the G-d of the Jews; He is the G-d of all nations.

G-d is Omnipotent
G-d can do anything. It is said that the only thing that is beyond His power is the fear of Him; that is, we have free will, and He cannot compel us to do His will. This belief in G-d's omnipotence has been sorely tested during the many persecutions of Jews, but we have always maintained that G-d has a reason for allowing these things, even if we in our limited perception and understanding cannot see the reason.

G-d is Omniscient
G-d knows all things, past, present and future. He knows our thoughts.

[Voter]

Sure, which pages are they on?

Looks like you quit responding on page 17 in my view.

[LegendarySandwich]

Maybe we should restart this debate. It seems to have gotten slightly out-of-hand.

[Gawen]

And since we're on the subject of why God made evil, let's talk about the conundrum called...*cue ominous Dum dum duuuuum music here*...Satan. The Hebrew word "HaSatan" means "the adversary."
Satan is depicted as tempting humans before God, but the Bible paints a picture of a humanity which is inclined towards evil anyway. Satan is like the kid down the block who egged you on to do something bad that you wanted to do anyways and then he's the prosecuting attorney, bringing charges against humanity. But, is Satan against God's plans for man or is he part of God's plans for man?

To some degree, God appears to allow Satan limited autonomy, or free will. He is confined to Earth, for example. When Jesus makes his second coming, Satan gets locked up for 1,000 years so humanity will continue to sin in his absence, proving to us that we are wretched sinners and it was never Satan's fault in the first place. Finally, Satan is released from prison so that God can throw him in a pit of fire, where he will burn forever.  

I mean, really...could one think Satan would go along with God's plans for him if he had the choice? If not, then would it be too much of a stretch to say Satan would do whatever he can to prevent the circumstances that would lead to his demise? It seems that he would if he could, but he can't. Every time Satan tries to thwart God, it turns out God was playing him all along.

I have wondered this from time to time. What happens when Satan reads the Book of Revelation? If God has put his entire game plan in there, Satan must surely have a winning plan ready for the big day. I mean, it's not like God's going to interfere with his Free Willâ,,¢ and make him forget he read it, right? On the other hand, if what is written in Revelation is what's going to happen, Satan has no Free Willâ,,¢. He's not a sock puppet....he's a character in a film that's been foreordained - predestined to fail. As are we all. And the sad part is Satan knows it. What an awful existence that must be.

[AnimatedDirt]

I don't know.

Finally. Some honest reflection.

I mean, really...could one think Satan would go along with God's plans for him if he had the choice? If not, then would it be too much of a stretch to say Satan would do whatever he can to prevent the circumstances that would lead to his demise? It seems that he would if he could, but he can't. Every time Satan tries to thwart God, it turns out God was playing him all along.

It's called pride in thinking he is right/equal/better than God.

[LegendarySandwich]

It's called pride in thinking he is right/equal/better than God.

If that's true, then Satan is truly an idiot. The biggest idiot in all of literature. His stupidity cannot be calculated.

[Existentialist]

It's called pride in thinking he is right/equal/better than God.

If that's true, then Satan is truly an idiot. The biggest idiot in all of literature. His stupidity cannot be calculated.

I'd agree that Satan's idiocy is part of the Judeo-Christian model.  It's a bit of propaganda really.  Nobody wants to be thought of as following an idiot, do they?

[Gawen]

Sure, which pages are they on?

Looks like you quit responding on page 17 in my view.

I reckon I did. I don't remember seeing this post. Sorry 'bout that.

Let me repeat the argument. If you define omniscience such that God determines each person's thoughts and actions,and define free will based on possible alternatives, then yes, you can charge that omniscience precludes free will.

I do not define it that way, the Bible does. God is all knowing everywhen.

I do not define it that way, the Bible does. God is all knowing everywhen.

[1]Please support that. [2]Jesus was able to give up omniscience.

1. I already have. 2. Then Jesus was not God. You have a very large paradox here or you're splitting hairs. God the father knew what was happening - going to happen to Jesus. Jesus, the God would have to know what was going on.
Mark 2:5: "Son, your sins are forgiven".
Isaiah 43:25, and 44:22, God states that the forgiveness of sins is something that the true God does as opposed to Idols.
Mk 2:7: "Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Note that Jesus does not say that they were incorrect in their belief. Instead he says:
Mark 2:9:"Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'?"  
Jesus could do both, he could forgive sins as easily as he could heal. Since only God can forgive sins Jesus had to believe he was God. God is Omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-12), yet Jesus also claimed this.
Matthew 18:20: "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." Note that this happens before the resurrection. After the resurrection:
Matt 28:20: "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

I can give you more instances, but this should suffice. The paradox is God the father is omniscient. God Jesus is not. The paradox is of your own doing. A paradox that needs not be.

Yes.....yep. No one faults Shakespeare for killing Romeo and Juliet because they have no right to justice. By your argument, we are just more complex characters in a more complex play. Explain why we have a right to justice.

As social beings, we have a right for justice. If I punch you in the face, you have 4 choices:
1) Eye for an eye - reciprocate accordingly
2) Turn the other cheek - no justice at all
3) Seek justice in a legal fashion - police and attorneys
4) Forget about it - no justice at all

I honestly think I do not need to explain to you why there is a justice system. And I (along with several others) have already told you that God is unjust for punishing man for something God had written (planned) before creation.

But, if God determines our every smallest thought, we are not autonomous, and sop we have no right to justice.

That is true and the Bible supports it. I have given you scriptural evidence in support of it.

I also see a lot of Nopes with little explanation.

It has already been explained by others and myself. I can't MAKE you wrap your head around it.

I'm making an analogy to explore the concept of free will and you're dodging.

The analogies do not fit.

Suppose everyone has free will. Tomorrow I gain omniscience of all things past, present and future. Are all past events now devoid of free will?

Nope. But if you predestine our every thought and deed, like YHWH, then all our free will is moot.

[Gawen]

I don't know.

Finally. Some honest reflection.

I mean, really...could one think Satan would go along with God's plans for him if he had the choice? If not, then would it be too much of a stretch to say Satan would do whatever he can to prevent the circumstances that would lead to his demise? It seems that he would if he could, but he can't. Every time Satan tries to thwart God, it turns out God was playing him all along.

It's called pride in thinking he is right/equal/better than God.

*huge sigh*....but what you're not understanding is Satan was MADE that way. It isn't his fault. Preordained...predestined....whatever you wish to call it, God's plan was already made up before it was put into motion.

[AnimatedDirt]

*huge sigh*....but what you're not understanding is Satan was MADE that way. It isn't his fault. Preordained...predestined....whatever you wish to call it, God's plan was already made up before it was put into motion.

*huge sigh right back*... what you don't understand is that Satan was a perfectly made agent with absolute freewill able to choose regardless of the known outcome.

[AnimatedDirt]

It's called pride in thinking he is right/equal/better than God.

If that's true, then Satan is truly an idiot. The biggest idiot in all of literature. His stupidity cannot be calculated.

Is a child who knows they are wrong but insists on stomping their feet screaming, "No, no, no!" truly an idiot or just an intelligence refusing to acknowledge the truth.  Pride makes all of us do many stupid things, doesn't necessarily mean we are stupid.

[Voter]

1. I already have.

No you haven't. Please give a logical reason that an omniscient being must necessarily be continuously omniscient.

I can give you more instances, but this should suffice. The paradox is God the father is omniscient. God Jesus is not. The paradox is of your own doing. A paradox that needs not be.

It's not a paradox, as omniscience is apparently not a defining attribute of deity in Christianity.

As social beings,

If our every thought is put there by God, we are not beings, social or otherwise.

I honestly think I do not need to explain to you why there is a justice system. And I (along with several others) have already told you that God is unjust for punishing man for something God had written (planned) before creation.

Don't I know it. You guys just keep repeating it and dancing around my arguments.

Here's another way to look at it. Suppose I had the time to program a series of thoughts to run through a computer. As the program's running, I kick the computer. Am I evil? Why?
 

But, if God determines our every smallest thought, we are not autonomous, and sop we have no right to justice.

That is true and the Bible supports it. I have given you scriptural evidence in support of it.

Here you're agreeing that we have no right to justice. I presume this is an error.

[Voter]

If God is continuously omniscient, by your definitions he would lack free will himself, and cannot justly be judged for his actions.

If you accept material determinism, then none of us have free will. Yet, we judge and punish unjustly.

[LegendarySandwich]

Here's another way to look at it. Suppose I had the time to program a series of thoughts to run through a computer. As the program's running, I kick the computer. Am I evil? Why?

No, because the program is not human -- it is not intelligent, it does not have feelings or emotions, it cannot feel pain or suffer. Your analogy fails.