Why Did God Have to Make Evil?

[Gawen]

Thought there'd be a response by now.

Some of us have to work.

Let me repeat the argument. If you define omniscience such that God determines each person's thoughts and actions,[strike:r8jnrj1c]and define free will based on possible alternatives[/strike:r8jnrj1c], then yes, you can charge that omniscience precludes free will.

I do not define it that way, the Bible does. God is all knowing everywhen. I've given enough Biblical support that God has chosen all humans actions (before creation) until such time (that we have no clue when) he stops. If that is true, and the Bible says it is, there is no free will to define.

However, recall the main argument. People get so hung up on free will, they forget why it's important in the first place. The Bible doesn't come out and say that we have it, so it's not a direct Biblical defense.

That is true. But you can't go from no direct Biblical defense (support) to...

The point is that most people believe

What should have come next is...

God's omniscience precludes man's free will, God is unjust for punishing man.

Because that is precisely what is happening.

However, note that there is an unstated presumption in this argument - that man has a right to justice.

No.....nope. This only works if it's God's justice and we already know, through the Bible that god's justice does not exist.

This needs to be supported.

It can't be supported because the Bible says otherwise.

Once on another site I posed the question, What gives something a right to justice? on its own.

Totally different argument.

But, if God determines our every smallest thought, we are not autonomous, and sop we have no right to justice. So, the argument is self-defeating.

Nope.

Similarly, the argument that omniscience precludes free will can usually be extended to god himself.

Right.

So, if god has no free will, you have no right to judge him as unjust.

Nope. If God has no free will...well, you see how corrupt the concept of an omni God is.

Another response...Suppose omniscience precludes free will. OK as far as it goes, but wouldn't an omniscient god know what your life would be in the absence of an omniscient god?

Non sequitor. I have no clue. All I can deal with is the one you claim is here now and what the Bible says about it.

 

Then there are the time travel analogies. Suppose there is no god and we have free will.

There is no suppose of time travel or a god that gives free will. The argument is fallacious. Another non sequitor and a red herring. Begs the question...etc. You are playing the "is-ought" problem. The Bible says what 'is'. You're saying what 'ought' to be.

[Voter]

Thought there'd be a response by now.

Some of us have to work.

Let me repeat the argument. If you define omniscience such that God determines each person's thoughts and actions,[strike:3r61ihks]and define free will based on possible alternatives[/strike:3r61ihks], then yes, you can charge that omniscience precludes free will.

I do not define it that way, the Bible does. God is all knowing everywhen.

Please support that. Jesus was able to give up omniscience.

I've given enough Biblical support that God has chosen all humans actions (before creation) until such time (that we have no clue when) he stops. If that is true, and the Bible says it is, there is no free will to define.

However, recall the main argument. People get so hung up on free will, they forget why it's important in the first place. The Bible doesn't come out and say that we have it, so it's not a direct Biblical defense.

That is true. But you can't go from no direct Biblical defense (support) to...

The point is that most people believe

What should have come next is...

God's omniscience precludes man's free will, God is unjust for punishing man.

Because that is precisely what is happening.

However, note that there is an unstated presumption in this argument - that man has a right to justice.

No.....nope.

Yes.....yep. No one faults Shakespeare for killing Romeo and Juliet because they have no right to justice. By your argument, we are just more complex characters in a more complex play. Explain why we have a right to justice.

This needs to be supported.

It can't be supported because the Bible says otherwise.

It's not a Biblical point. What gives something a right to justice?

Once on another site I posed the question, What gives something a right to justice? on its own.

Totally different argument.

No it's not. I've made the clear connection. Explain why we have a right to justice, or the argument collapses.

But, if God determines our every smallest thought, we are not autonomous, and sop we have no right to justice. So, the argument is self-defeating.

Nope.

Why not?

Similarly, the argument that omniscience precludes free will can usually be extended to god himself.

Right.

So, if god has no free will, you have no right to judge him as unjust.

Nope. If God has no free will...well, you see how corrupt the concept of an omni God is.

What I see is hypocrisy on your part. God is unjust for judging despite lack of free will, but you're allowed to judge despite lack of free will. I also see a lot of Nopes with little explanation.

Another response...Suppose omniscience precludes free will. OK as far as it goes, but wouldn't an omniscient god know what your life would be in the absence of an omniscient god?

Non sequitor.

Of course it's a non sequitur - hence Another.

I have no clue. All I can deal with is the one you claim is here now and what the Bible says about it.

Why couldn't an omniscient being know this?

 

Then there are the time travel analogies. Suppose there is no god and we have free will.

There is no suppose of time travel or a god that gives free will. The argument is fallacious. Another non sequitor and a red herring. Begs the question...etc. You are playing the "is-ought" problem. The Bible says what 'is'. You're saying what 'ought' to be.

[/quote]
I'm making an analogy to explore the concept of free will and you're dodging. Suppose everyone has free will. Tomorrow I gain omniscience of all things past, present and future. Are all past events now devoid of free will?

[Voter]

Another point - is an omniscient/omnipotent god necessarily continuously omniscient? I.e., can he turn omniscience off as he chooses? If so, then there are more scenarios to consider.

If it is by nature, I would say He can't turn it off.  By that scenario one could conclude He could simply turn off His Righteousness and omni-Judgeness and simply wave a wand and deem all perfect.

It is therefore my conclusion that God cannot simply turn on and off that which makes Him God.

Then it's not a defining characteristic of his nature, as Jesus plainly said there were some things that he didn't know - unless you deny the divinity of Christ?

[Voter]

And, Voter, your argument fails -- because evil is evil, no matter if we have free will or not. Any omnipotent, omniscient, good god that would purposefully subject his beings to pain and suffering, especially on this magnitude, is evil, even if he's a puppet master (in this case, the master of puppets).

This fails in a number of ways, but first, I'm curious - where does omniscience even come into this argument? Is a being of limited power allowed to inflict pain and suffering on others without being evil? Or are you just tossing terms in without even thinking?

[LegendarySandwich]

And, Voter, your argument fails -- because evil is evil, no matter if we have free will or not. Any omnipotent, omniscient, good god that would purposefully subject his beings to pain and suffering, especially on this magnitude, is evil, even if he's a puppet master (in this case, the master of puppets).

This fails in a number of ways, but first, I'm curious - where does omniscience even come into this argument? Is a being of limited power allowed to inflict pain and suffering on others without being evil? Or are you just tossing terms in without even thinking?

Omniscience rules out any chance that he doesn't know the effects evil cause, or anything like that -- basically, it rules out the chance of mistake.

[TheJackel]

I have already and completely debunked your assertion; that omniscience precludes freewill.
It is wrong and cannot stand even on layman's terms.

 lol. You seriously think you are going to win a debate you had lost by magically claiming you debunked something you never even directly addressed? If you think circular logic and avoiding the argument is winning or debunking, it's no wonder why you can't seem to handle reality. sheesh, all people want from you and Voter is some honesty discourse

Produce ancient books/letters claiming such as there is a "Bible" to substanciate God and I'll take you more serious.
Without this, you're green god IS AS YOU SAY MINE IS, just an existence in your mind.

Remember where I told you to grow up above? Try addressing the argument within it's context and stop deflecting into irrelevant subjects that aren't even related to argument I posted. Stop preaching AnimatedDirt and learn how partake in honest discourse! It's irrelevant when Books are written kiddo!, And "Letters" in a book don't substantiate the existence of anything other than the letters, or that someone had an idea or belief! When you can actually be honest AnimatedDirt, you might actually start becoming relevant in this discussion.

Rules?  LOL  You, a finite being is proposing rules for something infinite?

Really, If I am finite there is no infinite Omniscient being, Hello! Myself alone automatically would make any other mind finite! Separated.Hence there is informational boundaries between my consciousness and everyone else! So unless you want to call me GOD AnimatedDirt, I suggest you rethink your position! It it were Omniscient kiddo, it would have to posses my own consciousness as it's own! It would have to literally be ME! You clearly don't understand what infinite means do you? Omniscient being would have to be the sum total of all existence! AKA THE SUM TOTAL OF ALL INFORMATION! Pure Solipsism lol. The highlighted text was in contradiction of many of your own arguments Animated dirt... You keep saying gives and allows as if that magically makes any sense under omniscience! So again, get out that video camera and pretend to play GOD!. Try creating something that you know everything about infinitely and then try and have it have free will that would or could defy that path to which you already know! NOT GUNNA HAPPEN!!! The creation could never choose it's own path!

So try and choose your own path Animated dirt apart from your Omniscient GOD's knowing to which extends back to the moment of your supposed creation Just like a movie character in a movie already recorded! It will never magically just start doing it's own thing!.. Nice placebo free will you got that sir!

[strike:1dz7auoa]Get your arguments against me and omniscience straight plz.[/strike:1dz7auoa]

Edit: On second thought, that sounds rude.  Apologies.

[/quote][/quote]

If you Learn how to use definitions of words properly, we wouldn't have this problem  :pop:

[TheJackel]

And, Voter, your argument fails -- because evil is evil, no matter if we have free will or not. Any omnipotent, omniscient, good god that would purposefully subject his beings to pain and suffering, especially on this magnitude, is evil, even if he's a puppet master (in this case, the master of puppets).

This fails in a number of ways, but first, I'm curious - where does omniscience even come into this argument? Is a being of limited power allowed to inflict pain and suffering on others without being evil? Or are you just tossing terms in without even thinking?

Just to make this clearer, you can look at it like this:

Energy and information are two sides of the same coin literally! Everything that exists can be considered information. To be Omniscent would require the entity to be existence itself in it's entirety! To know everything infinitely it would have to BE everything in the literal most infinite context! Pure Solipsism! You may as call existence one giant brain and anything it imagines is just figments of it's imagination and nothing more! However, that would be rather funny to have GOD worship itself as GOD or damn little parts of itself to hell

However, if you actually take the time to address the paradox that nullifies Omniscience to the point of being nothing more than a logical fallacy, you wouldn't even still be arguing this.

[TheJackel]

I'm making an analogy to explore the concept of free will and you're dodging. Suppose everyone has free will. Tomorrow I gain omniscience of all things past, present and future. Are all past events now devoid of free will?

First read the above post of mine, next define omniscience, and then directly address the paradoxes below please. I do appreciate to see at least one of you heading in that direction and trying to address the issue  


The Paradoxes :

Can an Omnipotent and Omniscient Entity design and create something that can do or think that which it would not already know in complete infinite detail before it was created, during it's entire existence, and after it's existence?

OR:

Can an Omniscient Entity Create something that which it does not already know? Could it create anything at all if it's Omniscient (infinitely all knowing)?


Omniscient entity would also defy creation itself because the action could never exist if something infinitely knows everything! It would be like a giant picture it couldn't do anything with or to because itself would be the picture! It would just be a picture of the infinite past and future! It would be impossible to have created anything at all! It would all just simply have existed! All purpose, and free will would be lost!

Either please address these Paradoxes AnimatedDirt, and Voter, or don't bother arguing the subject.   If you say yes, I suggest you lay out in detail how exactly that would happen in scientific like logic, and not in fantasy land "just because I have faith it can". ok?  

[Sophus]

I just have to ask (a test for perversity    ) would Yahweh's excuse for allowing evil be superior for some reason to other gods? In other words, you can understand why, say, Allah had to make/allow for evil to come into existence yes?

[TheJackel]

I just have to ask (a test for perversity   As in it couldn't out of free will just let existence be an utter place of pure bliss

So everyone go make them GOD's happy and start killing things like baby bunnies!

[iSok]

I'm making an analogy to explore the concept of free will and you're dodging. Suppose everyone has free will. Tomorrow I gain omniscience of all things past, present and future. Are all past events now devoid of free will?

First read the above post of mine, next define omniscience, and then directly address the paradoxes below please. I do appreciate to see at least one of you heading in that direction and trying to address the issue  


The Paradoxes :



OR:

Can an Omniscient Entity Create something that which it does not already know? Could it create anything at all if it's Omniscient (infinitely all knowing)?


Omniscient entity would also defy creation itself because the action could never exist if something infinitely knows everything! It would be like a giant picture it couldn't do anything with or to because itself would be the picture! It would just be a picture of the infinite past and future! It would be impossible to have created anything at all! It would all just simply have existed! All purpose, and free will would be lost!

Either please address these Paradoxes AnimatedDirt, and Voter, or don't bother arguing the subject.   If you say yes, I suggest you lay out in detail how exactly that would happen in scientific like logic, and not in fantasy land "just because I have faith it can". ok?  
Why do you people think it's bad to kill baby's or rape women or murder for money?

About your Paradox.

1. You use your own human logic  (Human capacity has limits).

2. I'll try to answer.
Omnipotent - Creating is as in physical shape, in matter.
Omniscience - As in knowing all and KNOW what to create without giving it a shape(life) in physical form.


A human examle.
I do know how to cook eggs, without doing it.
how do I know? I did it before.
This is an example of limits, humans only learn by experience.
Your paradox is true for humans because it transcends our limits.
But you can't use this paradox for God, therefore it's false.

God is not limitted by human intellect. (point 1)
He already knows how to create eggs without ever have done it.

[Voter]

And, Voter, your argument fails -- because evil is evil, no matter if we have free will or not. Any omnipotent, omniscient, good god that would purposefully subject his beings to pain and suffering, especially on this magnitude, is evil, even if he's a puppet master (in this case, the master of puppets).

This fails in a number of ways, but first, I'm curious - where does omniscience even come into this argument? Is a being of limited power allowed to inflict pain and suffering on others without being evil? Or are you just tossing terms in without even thinking?

Omniscience rules out any chance that he doesn't know the effects evil cause, or anything like that -- basically, it rules out the chance of mistake.

You ruled that out by saying "purposefully." Again I ask, is a being of limited power/knowledge allowed to (this time I'll add for consistency) purposefully inflict pain and suffering on others without being evil?

[Voter]

Can an Omnipotent and Omniscient Entity design and create something that can do or think that which it would not already know in complete infinite detail before it was created, during it's entire existence, and after it's existence?[/size]

Possibly. If an entity is omniscient now, that does not necessarily imply that it has continuously been omniscient. I raised that topic in my main post.

Can an Omniscient Entity Create something that which it does not already know?

Possibly. See above.

Could it create anything at all if it's Omniscient (infinitely all knowing)?[/size][/b][/color]

Sure. If it's infinitely all knowing, it would know the outcome of all possible creations, and copuld then choose which, if any, to create.

BTW your use of sizes and colors is really annoying and immature. ETA: and the overuse of smilies, too. Drama is a coverup for a weak position.

[TheJackel]

I thought I already explained this issue of evil in my topic, but no one bothered to react= lol As if defecting to the other side of the argument would win the argument    

God is not limitted by human intellect. (point 1)
He already knows how to create eggs without ever have done it.

I am not limited to your intellect point 2. And please provide evidence of this.. Because again under that argument you fail to realize no limits to knowledge base would require me to be GOD himself! You can not know infinitely everything without knowing exactly what it's like to actually and literally BE INFINITELY everything at all times, and within every infinitely eternal moment! Omniscience would require your supposed deity to be the entire sum total of existence! And even then it would FAIL under the paradoxes.

[LegendarySandwich]

You ruled that out by saying "purposefully." Again I ask, is a being of limited power/knowledge allowed to (this time I'll add for consistency) purposefully inflict pain and suffering on others without being evil?

It depends on the circumstances, but generally, no. I'd say it depends on how much pain and suffering  that being causes, though, and his intentions.