Why are we here? - Islam

[LegendarySandwich]

At Ls, I found the source of your article.

http://www.answering-islam.com  --> This is against Islam --> pro christianity

http://www.answering-christianity.com  --> This is against christianity --> pro islam.

I don't trust the content of this websites. Both made false claims in the past.
I'd rather trust Dr. Moore about this case than a priest who knows nothing about embryology.

So your source is at the very least doubtful.

Ad hominem. The source is irrelevant.

My question is:

Do you people even want a God to exist?

Yes, but that too is irrelevant. I also want unicorns to exist.

[LegendarySandwich]

Want has nothing to do with it.  We are simply asking for believers to provide evidence for their claims that deities exist - using something other than a circular argument.

But are you open to God existing?

'Evidence' that god exists is probably only available on an individual basis. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument, see my first post.

Which makes it very probable that God only exists in the minds of believers.

[Simonsimon]

If you can keep this in mind while reading his posts, a lot of what he says will start to make some sense.

I understand what he's saying.

I know, my text wasnt pointed at you, you seem the most open-minded so far

iSok can only tell you what he sees as signs (proof), whether you see the same  things as proof is up to you. He hasn't been able to convince me yet, either I'm sure he can come up with better arguments.

That's just rediculous He's only stating the reasons why he believes in God and the Koran. I might add that he hasn't done so in a very coherent way, then again it is pretty hard to do so with this material. He's not an imam.

He's trying to debate with us and use these proofs.

Yeah, he's trying to elaborate on why these proofs that have convinced him are good. No luck convincing us yet though.

Also, I'd like to say to the people that said the bible / koran was boring to read, that these books are only boring if you weren't really serious about reading them with an open mind. In other words, to find some sort of meaning in them, without telling yourself that "this crap isn't real anyway and God doesn't exist".

No. Even when I was a Christian, I found the Bible boring.

Were you really trying to find meaning in it? In what way were you christian? Just raised to be one, but not really a believer? Or were you a terribly rigid dogmatic person

[LegendarySandwich]

ok the next argument.
A prophecy.

This verse is about the Pharao who went after Moses, when he drowned.


(10:90) And We led the Children of Israel across the sea. Then Pharaoh and his hosts pursued them in iniquity and transgression until Pharaoh cried out while he was drowning: 'I believe that there is no god but Allah in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am also one of those who submit to Allah.


(10:91) (Thereupon came the response): 'Now you believe, although you disobeyed earlier and were one of the mischief-makers.


(10:92) We shall now save your corpse that you may serve as a sign of warning for all posterity although many men are heedless of Our signs.


That Pharao was called  'Merenptah'.
http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/28/2805/D2COD00Z/posters/garrett-kenneth-mummy-of-merenptah-in-the-cairo-museum.jpg

One part of your book confirms another part of your book. That is not compelling enough to believe its claims.

This is what Velma meant when she said that you can't use the Qur'an as proof that it's true.

[Simonsimon]

Want has nothing to do with it.  We are simply asking for believers to provide evidence for their claims that deities exist - using something other than a circular argument.

But are you open to God existing?

'Evidence' that god exists is probably only available on an individual basis. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument, see my first post.

Which makes it very probable that God only exists in the minds of believers.

Nah, come on you're smarter than that. That only believers see 'proof' of something, doesn't mean that God doesn't exist just because the rest isn't seeing it.

[iSok]

Ls.

You seem to question two different ways.

- Why are we here?

- The divine origin of the Qur'an.


First of all, please ask as many questions as possible about the first subject.
'Why are we here?' Every possible question that pops up in your mind, I will try to answer.

[LegendarySandwich]

Next prophecy.

The promise to preserve the Qur'an

"We have revealed the Reminder and We have taken upon ourselves the duty of preserving it intact" (Al-Hijr 15:9)


The first original Qur'ans, consisted of about eight copies.
Two of those first copies from the seventh century can still be found.
One is in Turkey and the other is in Kazachstan I think.

I've said before that I don't consider arguments for one religion valid if the exact same argument can be used for another religion. Christians use the fact that their Bible is still around, and so popular to boot, as evidence that it's true.

[iSok]

Next prophecy.

The promise to preserve the Qur'an

"We have revealed the Reminder and We have taken upon ourselves the duty of preserving it intact" (Al-Hijr 15:9)


The first original Qur'ans, consisted of about eight copies.
Two of those first copies from the seventh century can still be found.
One is in Turkey and the other is in Kazachstan I think.

I've said before that I don't consider arguments for one religion valid if the exact same argument can be used for another religion. Christians use the fact that their Bible is still around, and so popular to boot, as evidence that it's true.

I will give every answer.
I'm waiting for your questions regarding the creation of mankind.
Regarding free will etc...ask all your questions so we can move on.

[LegendarySandwich]

Nah, come on you're smarter than that. That only believers see 'proof' of something, doesn't mean that God doesn't exist just because the rest isn't seeing it.

It's not that -- it's the fact that the only "evidence" for any religion is subjective. And then there's the fact that's it's all conflicting.

It's like if someone came up to you and said that there was a giant dragon flying above the city. You say that you don't see any dragon; in response, he claims that he sees the dragon there -- he can feel its presence, and it makes him all happy inside. Then, another person comes up to you and says he's overheard your conservation, and wants to point out that it's not actually a dragon that's flying above the city, but a unicorn. He gives the exact same subjective arguments for its existence as the man claiming that it was a dragon did.

While this alone doesn't prove that their claims are false, it definitely gives me no reason to believe either of them.

[LegendarySandwich]

I know, my text wasnt pointed at you, you seem the most open-minded so far

Actually, that was the exact sort of answer to the "why does evil exist?" question that I addressed -- over and over -- in my thread. The entire argument falls apart for me when I consider that God was the same person who made it so that it's impossible to know good without evil. Why couldn't he have made it so that we can know good without evil?

I've just answered that, I hope. If my answer wasn't clear enough yet, tell me and I'll try to rephrase.

No, it was clear. I hope you consider my response to it.

Were you really trying to find meaning in it? In what way were you christian? Just raised to be one, but not really a believer? Or were you a terribly rigid dogmatic person

Eh, I'm not sure if I was "really" a Christian in the deep part of my consciousness. I was indoctrinated into it from birth, and I did at least superficially believe it.

[LegendarySandwich]

Okay, iSok:

Why did Allah create evil and imperfection? It would be best if you my "Why Did God Have to Make Evil?" thread before responding.

[iSok]

ok your first question:

Why is there evil?

- I already explained that mankind has it's own will.

- I also explained that this life is a stage of creation.

Muslims believe God put a spirit of him in every man.
That spirit has values/morals.

In this life we can either increase these values or destroy them.
The evil in this world is meant for our development. The evil in this world is also because of some of mankind's action.
Some want to rage wars for political ideology's  --> Communism / Capatalism

We will learn from it, we will appreciate peace once when we have seen war.
So it's not God that creates Evil. it's us.

Evil = against the morality that God has given us.

Basically this life is the final stage of creation.
We can help our development by praying, believing and doing things that act with God's morality that is given us, so it may grow.
In this stage we will develop our soul, we will grow towards God.

Do I need to go in-depth?
next question?

[LegendarySandwich]

Okay, iSok:

Why did Allah create evil and imperfection? It would be best if you my "Why Did God Have to Make Evil?" thread before responding.

[Simonsimon]

It's not that -- it's the fact that the only "evidence" for any religion is subjective. And then there's the fact that's it's all conflicting.

I'll obviously agree on the evidence being subjective. What exactly is conflicting about it?

It's like if someone came up to you and said that there was a giant dragon flying above the city. You say that you don't see any dragon; in response, he claims that he sees the dragon there -- he can feel its presence, and it makes him all happy inside. Then, another person comes up to you and says he's overheard your conservation, and wants to point out that it's not actually a dragon that's flying above the city, but a unicorn. He gives the exact same subjective arguments for its existence as the man claiming that it was a dragon did.

While this alone doesn't prove that their claims are false, it definitely gives me no reason to believe either of them.

Problem is, there's no giant Book of Dragonkin which gives meaning to the existence of the beast. With the religious books there's at least a point of reference from which you may or may not derive evidence to believe in religion. That evidence would still be subjective of course, but at least it's based on something. If you had put a Dragonkoran in your story, we would've had the same situation we now have with religion: You either do or don't believe in the religion using subjective evidence.

I know, my text wasnt pointed at you, you seem the most open-minded so far

Actually, that was the exact sort of answer to the "why does evil exist?" question that I addressed -- over and over -- in my thread. The entire argument falls apart for me when I consider that God was the same person who made it so that it's impossible to know good without evil. Why couldn't he have made it so that we can know good without evil?

Good one. I'm not entirely sure I can answer that, but here goes nothing.. I guess he needed some sort of construct to make sure a human being could advance himself (which is the purpose of our lives here, according to the koran). If he hadn't done it this way, how would people be able to come closer to god? A rupture between two opposing fronts, and freedom of choice to choose between the two was necessary.

Were you really trying to find meaning in it? In what way were you christian? Just raised to be one, but not really a believer? Or were you a terribly rigid dogmatic person

Eh, I'm not sure if I was "really" a Christian in the deep part of my consciousness. I was indoctrinated into it from birth, and I did at least superficially believe it.

Exactly. If you had been a "true christian" after having read the bible and being deeply convinced of the truth therein, there would be no way you would find the bible or the koran boring. It's just a matter of whether you want to find meaning in the bible or not. (Whether you actually do or not is up for debate of course)

[theclassicist]

Hi Isok.  What time is it in Holland? 4am?  

So.  I was thinking about your argument from earlier (which I dont believe was answered:

"By which the angels and the Spirit, ascend to Him in one Day the duration of which is fifty thousand years."[Qur'an 70:4]

Angels are made of light.

Well, im not sure that light can build, talk, sing, think, etc, but lets say for the sake of argument that these beings of light are endowed with abilities through the will of Allah.  Let's run with that.

t’ = (1-v2/c2)-1/2 (t-vx/c2)

where v = speed traveled
c = the speed of light (5.88 x 1012 miles/year)
x = position in space (defined by the equation x2 = c2t2)
t’ and t (single day = 2.7397 x 10-3 years and 50.000 years) are the two differing time perspectives.

Do you know what the answer will be for v (traveled speed by object) if you use those values for t' and t ?
yes indeed, the speed of light. Coincidence?
What that means is that two observers moving at different speeds will perceive time, size, and mass to be different. At speeds such as those traveled by humans in the present age, such differences are negligible.

Not when you travel at the speed of light.

So here we have an elegant equation entailing time perspectives, speed of light. Position in space, etc.  And an excellent question, which is:  

Coincidence?

Well, first let's'see what the English translations of the Qur'an say of Surah 70:4:


Sahih International

The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.

Muhsin Khan

The angels and the Ruh [Jibrael (Gabriel)] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years,

Pickthall

(Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.

Yusuf Ali

The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:

Shakir

To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

Dr. Ghali

To Him the Angels and the Spirit ascend with difficulty to Him in a Day whereof the determined (length) is fifty thousand years

OK.
So one literal translation of that verse could be 'Angels can travel so fast that an angel can go 50,000 times farther that a human in a day.'  This seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to say if angels existed.  Startlingly straightforward.  No need to wait for the theory of relativity for that one - i would expect angels to have many superhuman qualities, regardless of whether or not they could be inserted into equations -

In truth, I dont know what the probablity of such a coincidence is, but I'm sure it's less that the alternative:  that there really are angels made of light who travel at the speed of light to be Allah's messengers.

What im trying to say, Isok, is that just because these 2 figures show up in holy scripture in the context of travel, it doesnt make it true to say 'well, the Koran must be talking about objective scientific fact.'

Oh, and one more thing:


The Prophet was actually illiterate, most people think he wrote the Qur'an.

A great many people say the Qur'an is a masterpiece.  But does this mean that its words are from the divine?  Why?  Because it says so? Because someone else says so? Whatever you decide the answer is, I'm glad to have made your aquaintance.