Having a personal relationship with God

[LegendarySandwich]

I'm talking about modern day Christianity.

What you are speaking of, or should I say throwing all the Christians in a Protestant Evangelical group.

You also did say:

The Christ depicted in the Bible isn't, which, despite your claims to the contrary, is the only basis for your religion.

So what about the Christ that was depicted before the Bible? I guess that really doesn't matter, because in actuality the original Church that he established was about the life he gave to people. If you villianize Christ by the Bible, and if that was an accurate assesment, then would Christianity be as explosive as it was in the first 3 centuries leading up the legalization of Christianity by Constantine? If Christ was so bad, why would anyone follow him? To take that further, why would anyone die for that? 11 of the 12 apostles were martyed on a lie? What they came together and decided "Oh so we are going to make this great myth up about the Son of God, Him doing these miracles, and He rose from the dead...but here's the catch we could die by spreading this story!" Yeah that sounds real plausible.

As far as I'm concerned, Jesus never existed and his story is just that -- a story.

IFair enough, I guess.

And that is either you believe or not. You really think it would be fair that only the Christians would be saved and even some of the most holiest, good, honest atheists I have encountered (who are more pious than alot of Christians I've encountered) are going to be tortued for eternity?

Now that is illogical.

Yes, because it's obvious that's what I believe. Haven't I made it clear that I'm an average-joe Christian in the time I've been here?

[...What. Why?

If all you are is a bag of meat, well sorry to say but there really is no point in conversing with you then.

Why?

And, sorry to say, but we're all just bags of meat. Even if you feel it necessary to add a soul to that bag of meat, that still makes you a bag of meat, just with an unnecessary piece of supernatural fluff attached.

[Achronos]

And, sorry to say, but we're all just bags of meat. Even if you feel it necessary to add a soul to that bag of meat, that still makes you a bag of meat, just with an unnecessary piece of supernatural fluff attached.

This isn't an argument. This is pontificating.

Since nothing with extension in spacetime can have always existed, anything with extension in spacetime has to have been caused to exist, energy included.

You've gussied up Anselm with scientific language, yet you've committed his fallacy of special pleading.

Actually, my syllogisms are Thomistic.

[LegendarySandwich]

And, sorry to say, but we're all just bags of meat. Even if you feel it necessary to add a soul to that bag of meat, that still makes you a bag of meat, just with an unnecessary piece of supernatural fluff attached.

This isn't an argument. This is pontificating.

What exactly is wrong with my "pontification"? And you still have failed to explain why saying that I'm a bag of meat makes you win the debate.

[Achronos]

And, sorry to say, but we're all just bags of meat. Even if you feelit necessary to add a soul to that bag of meat, that still makes you a bag of meat, just with an unnecessary piece of supernatural fluff attached.

This isn't an argument. This is pontificating.

What exactly is wrong with my "pontification"? And you still have failed to explain why saying that I'm a bag of meat makes you win the debate.

Goodness...if I wanted to debate with a bag of meat then I'll just pull out the bag of meat in my freezer.

Ugly... giant... bags of mostly water!
[youtube:2mvz3l42]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paH97dYR6Lg[/youtube:2mvz3l42]

It's clear you have such utter contempt for what is spiritual, so why even bother with religion at all? You are not quite convinced yet just how troubling the trustworthiness of the brain is for materialists. I rather do appreciate people who take being rational as a serious pursuit, because I think we are too often ruled by our passions and emotions, neither of which do we spend much time trying to examine. However, the search for truth requires a certain amount of practicality: a logical argument does not always account for reality.  Lots of things happen that are illogical, which is why we still have problems with our computers!

[Gawen]

So I will re-post my statement to you fine ladies and Gentlemen out there

I said to Mr. lundberg500 "I live with God daily. You have shown me nothing that says that what I am experiencing is a delusion. You haven't been able to do so because you can't prove your point. I will believe this until you give me good solid proof to disprove a 20 year relationship with God."

I still haven't heard anyone disprove this point

First, the theist has the burden of proof by making that positive statement bolded in red above. In your case you have to show the existence of this god and that you also have some sort of relationship with it.
Secondly, a person who has a persistent false (sometimes psychotic) belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary, no evidence at all or no good evidence suffers from a delusion.

When you can show this to us, we may then proceed.

[Gawen]

I live with God daily.

The absence of:
1) Any clear, convincing, coherent definition of god, and
2) Any evidence of something that exists and has some effect(s) on the natural world yet is not explicable within it...
3) Show why the evidence you present is more compelling than the other definitions of gods.

I can safely say that you do not, indeed, live with God daily. On the other hand, is Thor, the God of Thunder, the same god you've deluded yourself to believe is NOT real?

I'm sure that Yahweh doesn't exist for the same reason I know square circles don't exist. As sure as I assume you are that The Tooth Fairy does not exist. I mean, after all, no-one has shown otherwise. First I'd have to know what a god is. I know it's not any of the things people say are gods - those are all human creations - so I'd have to find out what exactly it is. After that, it's simple; like anything that wanted to prove its existence, it would only have to show itself to me. Then I wouldn't even have to believe it existed; I would know.

Of course, gsaint could put every god in a line-up. gsaint could point out all the ones and exclaim "Those, those are the gods that don't exist."Then my question would be, point to the one that does. But is it really the same god or do we just see it differently because sometimes he wears a silly hat? So when you offer your evidence of this god:
If a god exists, and has the ability to influence things on this planet, and/or in my life, then it must be detectable.
What color is it?
What does it smell like?
How big is it?
What does it sound like?
What does it feel like?
Where does it reside?

Please note that any answer you give must be accompanied with evidence. Something you read in a book is not acceptable.
But do remember that these are not proofs:
Monotheism's Origins
An Argument from God's Simplicity
An Argument from God's Perfection
An Argument from God's Sovereignty
Argument from Causal Order
An Argument from God's “Total Causality”
An Argument from Omnipotence
An Argument from the Demand for Total Devotion
An Argument from Achronos

At any rate, if there was a god which existed, that god would know and be able to provide the evidence which would convince me of that god's existence. After a 20 year relationship, presenting the evidence should be rather simple.


It would seem possible that a god might exist, and not care whether you know it exist or not, or what you believe. The functional difference between such a god, and no god appears to be nil. If there is no functional difference between that god and no god, then no god is the preferred explanation. Pardon me, I was merely pondering the question of whether a god that exists would 'necessarily' have to have any requirement to make himself definitively known.

Alas, once a person begins to require evidence, such as myself, belief is no longer the issue. Faith and reason appear to be mutually exclusive. I've never been able to figure out why God would appeal to man via faith, rather than reason. If, as I reckon you believe, God is creator of man, then God created man with the ability to reason. So why abandon reason in deference to faith? If God were to appeal to our reason, such that belief was no longer necessary, then we would know God rather than just believe we know.

[gsaint]

Do you trust me enough to believe what I have to say about the existence of God? If you don't trust me or have faith in what I say then you won't except what I have to say anyway. You say you are willing to hear but I am not so sure. You tell me the burden of proof is on be but I believe you idea that all of creation came into existence from nothing far harder to believe. I have never seen something pop into existence from nothing.

So why abandon reason in deference to faith? If God were to appeal to our reason, such that belief was no longer necessary, then we would know God rather than just believe we know.

I you really want to know.  God uses reason and faith. Still He requires faith becasue He wants you to trust Him. He wants you to trust Him enough to obey Him.

[Sophus]

Do you trust me enough to believe what I have to say about the existence of God? If you don't trust me or have faith in what I say then you won't except what I have to say anyway. You say you are willing to hear but I am not so sure. You tell me the burden of proof is on be but I believe you idea that all of creation came into existence from nothing far harder to believe. I have never seen something pop into existence from nothing.

1. Why should we trust with unquestioning faith what somebody on the internet says?
2. How is it you became the authority on God, the meaning to life, the universe and everything?

[Stevil]

Do you trust me enough to believe what I have to say about the existence of God?

I know that you believe that your god exists. I won't believe in your god simply because you tell me that your god exists.

I have never seen something pop into existence from nothing.

The obvious retort here would be
Have you seen your god create something into existence?

He wants you to trust Him enough to obey Him.

What a wonderful proposition for a personal relationship, much like a dog obeys its master

[LegendarySandwich]

Do you trust me enough to believe what I have to say about the existence of God?

Why should I?

If you don't trust me or have faith in what I say then you won't except what I have to say anyway.

I believe that you believe that you have a personal relationship with God.

You say you are willing to hear but I am not so sure.

Of course you aren't.

You tell me the burden of proof is on be but I believe you idea that all of creation came into existence from nothing far harder to believe.

STRAW MAN ALERT! STRAW MAN ALERT! Also, I'm pretty sure it's another fallacy...maybe a non sequitor.

I have never seen something pop into existence from nothing.

I've never seen your God, or any god, actually.

So why abandon reason in deference to faith? If God were to appeal to our reason, such that belief was no longer necessary, then we would know God rather than just believe we know.

I you really want to know.  God uses reason and faith. Still He requires faith becasue He wants you to trust Him. He wants you to trust Him enough to obey Him.

He can't appeal to our reason because that would mean we wouldn't trust him? What?

EDIT: Ah! It was a red herring!

Yeah, logical fallacies will get you nowhere here, gsaint.

[Gawen]

Do you trust me enough to believe what I have to say about the existence of God?

I can take that two different ways.
1) Would I trust you to tell me what you believe is true about the existence of a god. The answer to that is yes.
2) Or, do I trust you enough to believe in your evidence about the existence of a god.

If you don't trust me or have faith in what I say then you won't except what I have to say anyway.

I have no choice but to trust you...trust anyone, until otherwise certain circumstances arise that would lead me away from that trust. I'm fine on the trust issue, but why throw in the extra caveat? Faith.

You say you are willing to hear but I am not so sure.

You don't know me very well, so I can understand that. I'll hear any evidence for the existence of any god, deity, supernatural entity anyone has to offer.

You tell me the burden of proof is on be but...

Yes. The burden of proof for the existence of the god you believe in is on you. Anyone who makes a positive statement, the burden is on them to show evidence.

..but I believe you idea that all of creation came into existence from nothing far harder to believe. I have never seen something pop into existence from nothing.

I for one can happily say I don't know how everything started; it wasn't my idea. Is this your evidence? Your evidence for the existence of the god you believe in is 'creation'?

I you really want to know.  God uses reason and faith.

How can you possibly know this?

Still He requires faith becasue He wants you to trust Him.

How quaint. I see how you started the post with trust issues of me and you and now slip it in to me and god. You see, I can trust you because I'm fairly sure a live human being that wrote the post I'm responding to. I have no reason not to think otherwise. And, if I had the time and money, I'm sure, with your permission, I could eventually see you in person to verify you're the one who wrote your post. Relatively speaking, that would be easy. But not for a god that hides itself away. How do you know this to be true and why is it true for everyone?

He wants you to trust Him enough to obey Him.

Almost like Charlie's Angels. But at least the girls could HEAR him. At least the girls had the same experience of Charlie and could verify it with a man named Bosley, who heard Charlies as well.

I do not hear gods. There are over 2700 gods, deities and supernatural entities (qualifying for worship) that have been posited to exist. So far, I have heard none of them. The longer you write, presenting no evidence, the more cans you open and we get nowhere. Let's just take the first baby step and offer your evidence for the existence of your god.

[Gawen]

Do you trust me enough to believe what I have to say about the existence of God?

I can take that two different ways.
1) Would I trust you to tell me what you believe is true about the existence of a god? The answer to that is yes.
2) Or, do I trust you enough to believe in your evidence about the existence of a god? The answer to that remains to be seen.

If you don't trust me or have faith in what I say then you won't except what I have to say anyway.

I have no choice but to trust you...trust anyone, until otherwise certain circumstances arise that would lead me away from that trust. I'm fine on the trust issue, but why throw in the extra caveat? Faith.

You say you are willing to hear but I am not so sure.

You don't know me very well, so I can understand that. I'll hear any evidence for the existence of any god, deity, supernatural entity anyone has to offer.

You tell me the burden of proof is on be but...

Yes. The burden of proof for the existence of the god you believe in is on you. Anyone who makes a positive statement, the burden is on them to show evidence.

..but I believe you idea that all of creation came into existence from nothing far harder to believe. I have never seen something pop into existence from nothing.

I for one can happily say I don't know how everything started; it wasn't my idea. Is this your evidence? Your evidence for the existence of the god you believe in is 'creation'?

I you really want to know.  God uses reason and faith.

How can you possibly know this?

Still He requires faith becasue He wants you to trust Him.

How quaint. I see how you started the post with trust issues of me and you and now slip it in to me and god. You see, I can trust you because I'm fairly sure a live human being that wrote the post I'm responding to. I have no reason not to think otherwise. And, if I had the time and money, I'm sure, with your permission, I could eventually see you in person to verify you're the one who wrote your post. Relatively speaking, that would be easy. But not for a god that hides itself away. How do you know this to be true and why is it true for everyone?

He wants you to trust Him enough to obey Him.

Almost like Charlie's Angels. But at least the girls could HEAR him. At least the girls had the same experience of Charlie and could verify it with a man named Bosley, who heard Charlies as well. I do not hear gods. There are over 2700 gods, deities and supernatural entities (qualifying for worship) that have been posited to exist. So far, I have heard none of them. The longer you write, presenting no evidence, the more cans you open and we get nowhere.

Now, I said above I trust you. Fulfill that trust and take the first baby step and offer your evidence for the existence of your god. I'm quite willing to hear it.

[Gawen]

One more thing to help us move along. We need a definition of God. Since I think you are Christian, I'll write a definition of God and you may change, add or delete the definition as you see fit.

God is:
the supreme being of the universe; an unbodied mind, is everywhere
and transcends everything.
righteous in all its attitudes and actions (which includes),  
free from sin,
perfect in character,  
and just.

God is also:
eternal (without beginning or end),
Omnipotent,
omniscient,  
omnibenevolent (love and all good),
limitless in authority,
immutable,
and truth.

Moreover, God is self-existent,
nonspatial,
nonmaterial,
unimaginably powerful,
and personal.

Does that work for you?

Also, don't forget that I'm not asking for 100% proof. I'm asking for probable evidence that your God has a basis in reality.

[gsaint]

thank you all for answering honestly.  I suspected you would say what you all said so I find myself at a disadvantage. What would make you trust what I had to say?

How quaint. I see how you started the post with trust issues of me and you and now slip it in to me and god. You see, I can trust you because I'm fairly sure a live human being that wrote the post I'm responding to. I have no reason not to think otherwise. And, if I had the time and money, I'm sure, with your permission, I could eventually see you in person to verify you're the one who wrote your post. Relatively speaking, that would be easy. But not for a god that hides itself away. How do you know this to be true and why is it true for everyone?

Why do you think God hides himself away?  Yes you could do all this to find out I exist. So I am going to assume that you think anyone should be able to do the same with God. I would have to say that yes you should be able to actively look for God and find Him. Now the question is do you really want to find Him? Are you more comfortable with the fact that there is no God or would you like to know Him? Like you stated before that time, money and my permission are the things that you would need first before you would go out and find me. I would also say that you would also have to care enough to want to find me. If you don't care you may never find me right? Even if I was sitting next to you on a bus you wouldn't know it was me becasue you wouldn't care enough to search. Could this not be the same with God? Let me clarify somethings. No God does not occupy space or time like I do but that doesn't mean He is impossible to find.

Gawen your definition is mostly correct I will add somethings

He is the Triune God comprised of the God Head (father), Jesus the son fully man and fully God, The Holy Spirit which resides in all those who exchange their life for the life of Christ.
Jesus became sin for all man kind to be forgiven of sin
The Holy Spirit is a guide and councilor for daily life
All parts of the trinity are all equal

[LegendarySandwich]

thank you all for answering honestly.  I suspected you would say what you all said so I find myself at a disadvantage. What would make you trust what I had to say?

Answer me this: why should I trust what you say when it comes to matters of religion, and not iSok, who claims that Islam is true, not Christianity?

Why do you think God hides himself away?

If he isn't hiding, then why is there no evidence for his existence? "The beauty of nature" and other such bullshit answers do not count as evidence.

Yes you could do all this to find out I exist. So I am going to assume that you think anyone should be able to do the same with God. I would have to say that yes you should be able to actively look for God and find Him.

I've looked for him, and haven't found him.

Now the question is do you really want to find Him?

I did, and I still do wish that a god exists.

Are you more comfortable with the fact that there is no God

No.

or would you like to know Him?

If he exists, then yes.

Like you stated before that time, money and my permission are the things that you would need first before you would go out and find me. I would also say that you would also have to care enough to want to find me. If you don't care you may never find me right?

Why wouldn't we care? Our immortal souls are on the line.

Even if I was sitting next to you on a bus you wouldn't know it was me becasue you wouldn't care enough to search.

I would attribute not asking everyone on a bus whether they were you to lack of motivation.

Could this not be the same with God? Let me clarify somethings. No God does not occupy space or time like I do but that doesn't mean He is impossible to find.

I'm pretty sure that means he is.