Exhaustion

[AnimatedDirt]

animated Dirt, if you are just trying to make the point that one who can't help but argue should avoid family situations celebrating events they are prone to argue about then I'd agree.

That's almost it.  The point is...why complain about something you need not subject yourself to, ESPECIALLY when the event goes against that which you hold as truth, fact, reason, education...  If you can't help but argue...and you hate it, why go...and then complain about it?  

But there is no problem with simply going to the event and keeping your mouth shut (leaving if provoked by others) if doing so makes the family happy and you enjoy the event aside from theological disagreement.

Agreed.  

If atheists avoided every holiday that was at some point touched by religion we wouldn't even be able to celebrate Halloween.

Therein lies the lesser point of mild hypocrisy which I find interesting too.  I don't participate in anything I find false, unreasonable or a lie.  Maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough...I take that back.  I do give out candy at Halloween but I have no complaint about it.

[Achronos]

So far, every Christian I've encountered here has triggered my troll sense.  I guess that's to be expected.

I did follow up with your responses to mine pretty well, who I have held you in high regard but you never did respond to any of the responses I made, so I guess that's to be expected. The only people I really dont care to put too much time into are those that are under a guise of sarcasm and derision who aren't worth having a discussion with.

[Whitney]

If atheists avoided every holiday that was at some point touched by religion we wouldn't even be able to celebrate Halloween.

Therein lies the lesser point of mild hypocrisy which I find interesting too.  I don't participate in anything I find false, unreasonable or a lie.  Maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough...I take that back.  I do give out candy at Halloween but I have no complaint about it.

It would only be hypocrisy if we celebrated holidays as a religious person would...as most holidays (at least in america) have become secularized hypocrisy is not required to enjoy traditional aspects which many of us remember from childhood.  Christmas especially is no more hypocritical for an atheist to celebrate than a christian since the holiday was stolen from pagans anyway.

Perhaps you are being too strict in how you view some of these celbrations?  To me they are all just a good excuses to get together with friends and family during times most employers are likely to close shop.  I also like decorations and getting/giving presents.

[Sophus]

So far, every Christian I've encountered here has triggered my troll sense.  I guess that's to be expected.

Every once and a while there will be one who isn't. There was one not too long ago who doesn't seem to come around anymore; can't think of his name. He had a pair of glasses on top of a book for his avatar.

[Recusant]

I wrote a post in which I addressed what seemed to me to be some mean-spirited and inaccurate things that had been written in this thread, but decided that there really wasn't much point.  However, I would like to thank elliebean for provoking a good chuckle:

My family does this too, but I refuse to take the bait. I just smirk and stuff my mouth with figgy pudding.

The curious are another matter entirely, and unfortunately they sometimes get mistaken for trolls or caught in the crossfire. That's why I think it never hurts to give the benefit of the doubt to borderline cases.  If somebody really is a troll, they'll show their scaly hide and green teeth without being labelled as such prematurely.

[dgmort19]

Wow, you leave for a day and return to discover yourself accused of hypocrisy and general stupidity across 3 pages of debate. Ooookay, then.

There's a great deal I could say to deny the charges, but perhaps it would be more effective to attempt describing the scenario from my perspective.

You're a college student. You arrive at home where you live with your parents, two people whom you love very dearly and who love you in return, despite some very different beliefs about life and what allegedly follows it.

"Honey," says your mother, "It's your Uncle's birthday on Wednesday and we're all getting together at his house to celebrate. He would love to see you there, and so would everyone else." You attend the birthday bash, have a few drinks, eat some food, meet with your 6 young cousins, all of whom look up to and admire you. You also socialize with a few other relatives, who are entirely polite, charming and intelligent.

Suddenly, your grandmother, having indulged in a tad too much wine, begins reminding you of how dearly she loves you and, as a result, steers the heavy-handed conversation into a religious arena. After all, she wouldn't love you very much if she didn't at least attempt, with her limited faith-based reasoning, to force you off "the path to Hell."

You respond politely that religion isn't for you, and a few other relatives overhear, making their way into the conversation. Now it's you vs. five of them. Where they were previously charming, they are now irritatingly illogical. Later, the discussion ends and, though it was frustrating for you to repeatedly drill holes in their fallacious arguments to no avail, the normal socializing resumes and without warning, you're a family again. Good times are had, and you're glad that you had a chance to catch up with them.

Next week, your parents inform you of another family gathering. This one is for Christmas. The family will drink eggnog, eat turkey, exchange gifts and have a great time. Hey, religion may not even come up. It's not like they're members of Westboro. They have lives outside religion, too.

Now, AnimatedDirt, you're asking me to tell my parents that, because I am so frustrated by the family's beliefs, I will never attend another gathering? I should, instead, scorn my aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, and parents? I should tell them that, because Christmas is based on Christian ideas, I will refuse to enjoy its secular elements, such as the gift exchange and family dinner?

Dear My Family,

I have decided that, since we disagree on a single subject, I can no longer arrive at your birthdays, holiday celebrations, assist you with yardwork, etc. In fact, I would like never to see the lot of you again. I realize that your presence in the city in which we live is unavoidable. I have discovered a damp cave on the edge of town. It is packed with diseased rodents and abrasive bums who live empty lives of squallor and alcoholism, but they do not preach religion to me. They are my new family, and they have space for me in the back, so long as I act as the fifth party for their weekly Risk tournaments. I will accept scraps from the back door when you dine in the home of my parents. Please do not purchase birthday gifts for me, as this might force many of you into some kind of "get-together" where my presence would be required. As I have stated, we are in such disagreement that this would be intolerable. Find your children a new role model and stop calling me.

                                                                                                                                                     Love, dgmort19

[Sophus]

You would be thinking of Jac3510, who hasn't logged on for over a month.  I think he put a lot of work into his posts, and may have decided that he needed to focus elsewhere.  I recall that he has a young family, which makes great demands on one's time; he seemed to enjoy striving with atheists, but probably had to swear it off for a while.  I do agree with your assessment of him, though.  There have been others as well.  They come and go, and really, who could blame them.  Most of us are welcoming to the wandering bards of halleluja, but practically no one cuts them very much slack, and why should we?  For the most part they come here to beard the lions, and have a good idea that lions have teeth. Though such brave souls often have a faint troll aroma, that doesn't mean that they're actual trolls.  

On the other hand, I very occasionally  lurk at a Creationist forum. I enjoy reading some of their stuff, just for giggles.  But I'll never post there, because if I gave my honest opinion of their thinking, it would be trolling.  They don't want to hear what I have to say. What I'm trying to get across is that in my opinion it's very hard for a true believer to come here and not sound like a troll, at least some of the time. I'm glad that some of them do bother to stop by though; I'd enjoy this place without their presence, but probably not as much. I'm not familiar with a great deal of internet forums or all the terms they use but isn't a troll someone whose only purpose is to cause trouble? If an evolutionist went onto a Creationist forum it would nothing short of naïve if they truly think they're going to change anyone's mind, but I could see it as possibly being courteous and well intentioned. Plus I think religion just makes natural jerks/trolls out of a lot of people.

[Inevitable Droid]

For the most part they come here to beard the lions, and have a good idea that lions have teeth. Though such brave souls often have a faint troll aroma, that doesn't mean that they're actual trolls.

I hope this tangent is viewed by the moderators as on topic for this particular thread.  I actually think it is, since behavior on a message board and behavior at a family gathering can be parallel in some respects.  The difference of course is this: at a family gathering, many of the people there would immediately risk their lives for one another.  One minute they're annoying or tiresome, and the next, they might be dragging your unconscious body out of a burning building, straining and gasping, but refusing to leave you behind.

With regard to your quote above, Recusant - It depends on how these Christians behave once they've been told clearly and several times that logical empiricism is the only basis for truth that any of us will consider.  They can either respect that or disrespect that.  If they take a stance of disrespect and persevere in it for a length of time, then, on this message board, I find their behavior close enough to trollishness to be treated as such, at least by me, if not by the moderators, who probably need to hold themselves to a higher standard.

The curious are another matter entirely, and unfortunately they sometimes get mistaken for trolls or caught in the crossfire. That's why I think it never hurts to give the benefit of the doubt to borderline cases.  If somebody really is a troll, they'll show their scaly hide and green teeth without being labelled as such prematurely.

I agree.  It all hinges on whether they respond with respect or disrespect once they understand our epistemology.

[Cycel]

Is it so wrong to feel like giving up? Should I be ashamed that my mind can't bear the burden of trying to usher my family into the light of reason?  

You are fortunate you have your brother to chat with on the side.  I take it the other members of your family are seeking the discussion, not yourself.  I think what I would do is continue the conversation so long as tempers usually remain cool, but if not then it is probably best to avoid the topic of religion with them.

[Cycel]

Neither you nor anyone can make a dent in the faith of your relatives because their faith doesn't derive from their thinking, but rather, their thinking derives from their faith.

I have chosen only this one sentence but I wish to hold your entire post up for applause.  Nicely stated.

[Cycel]

I would put into question why they are so overbearing in their faith towards you, instead of yourself making a choice on what to believe. My grandmother was pretty wise in not sharing her faith unless someone asked her, I think this should apply as well.

That's generally been my approach, but then in person I am the shy reserved type.  

[Cycel]

But if God doesn't exist, then you, I, and everyone else are nothing more than highly-evolved chimps.

Personally I have no problem living with this idea.  

If this is true, then what I believe or do not believe is irrelevant. Humans are simply doomed to live on average 80 or so years and then die, on a planet that is doomed to die, orbiting a star doomed to die, in a galaxy doomed to die etc.

Unless this knowledge drives our species into acquiring technologies that permit avoidance of this fate.  We can't know what technologies we might as a species possess in the distant future.  We might seem like gods by today's standards.  As for my own life ending not much past 80, I would be grateful to make it that far, in good health.  I am not at all depressed at the thought of not existing after my death.  

Even if this is the case, and I don't concede that it is, I would still choose to believe in God. Belief in God provides that flicker of hope in this dark dark world. And what else matters in the end, if not hope??

So you would choose to live believing a falsehood.  You don't think you could find meaning in your life without belief in God, even if it were a false belief?  I've heard this view expressed a number of times by Christians of various stripes.  Not having a belief in God has permitted me to foster a contentment not available to you.  You, have found your own contentment, but it requires belief in God to maintain itself.

I can't say what would happen to you emotionally should you lose your belief, but I can tell you what has happened to two other men.  Dan Barker, in his book Godless, and William Lobdell writing in Losing My Religion, both expressed finding unexpected contentment.  These were devout men who both came to discover that they did not need God to feel complete.

[Cycel]

Therein lies the lesser point of mild hypocrisy which I find interesting too.  I don't participate in anything I find false, unreasonable or a lie.  Maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough...I take that back.  I do give out candy at Halloween but I have no complaint about it.

It is possible to value all these holidays as enjoyable secular events.  In my situation there are no immediate family members who take on the religious celebrations with a mind to them being strictly religious gatherings.  Those trapping are left at the door and not discussed in mixed company.

[AnimatedDirt]

It would only be hypocrisy if we celebrated holidays as a religious person would...as most holidays (at least in america) have become secularized hypocrisy is not required to enjoy traditional aspects which many of us remember from childhood.  Christmas especially is no more hypocritical for an atheist to celebrate than a christian since the holiday was stolen from pagans anyway.

I would respectfully disagree.  While I agree with you 100% that the holiDAY was stolen from pagans, no doubt about that, the underlying 'reason for the season' is all about a self-existent God that came down in the likeness of His creation.  It speaks volumes against what Atheism believes, or better, disbelieves.  It is a nice holiday that certainly is becoming more and more secularized, however i don't believe it will become so secularized that no longer will we remember the reason we celebrate it.  From the gifts the Maji brought and we emulate, to the evergreen trees and undying sun's rebirth...all aspects point to a belief in something that is worshiped.

Perhaps you are being too strict in how you view some of these celbrations?  To me they are all just a good excuses to get together with friends and family during times most employers are likely to close shop.  I also like decorations and getting/giving presents.

Perhaps to a degree you are correct.  I feel the same way, however, when the hard black and white thinking is turned on the believer in other aspects of life and belief.

Now, AnimatedDirt, you're asking me to tell my parents that, because I am so frustrated by the family's beliefs, I will never attend another gathering? I should, instead, scorn my aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, and parents? I should tell them that, because Christmas is based on Christian ideas, I will refuse to enjoy its secular elements, such as the gift exchange and family dinner?

Haven't you not only scorned them, but publically insulted them with your agreement that they goaded you, through delusion, ignorance, non-educated, absurdity and unreason to the point of telling your own family to ****off the next time?

Then on top of this you allow other supposedly like-minded people as yourself to insult your own family, which you "love"...if that's not a contradiction in terms, I don't know what is...and call them uneducated, brainwashed, hallucinating and in the end calls them fools?  This is the family you love?...and you agree...all the while then insinuating by the above comment to me that suggesting to you that you shouldn't partake of these rediculous meetings might then be in your best interest since the ideas behind the meetings AND these less evolved people, goes opposite to what you are claiming here??  These are the same people you love, yet are ready to say, "****off", but I'm the one your saying, "you're asking me to tell my parents..."  This ON TOP of your Atheism compounds your hypocrisy in my eyes and is precisely the reason I'm questioning here.

Now I hope you don't get angry at me, (but I am sure I'll get an ear full) but remember for one moment, I'm not the one(s) calling your loved ones stupid, ignorant, brainwashed, uneducated, crazy fools.  It amazes me.  I think if this were to happen right in your physical presence, you wouldn't stand for it.  But here...

[AnimatedDirt]

Therein lies the lesser point of mild hypocrisy which I find interesting too.  I don't participate in anything I find false, unreasonable or a lie.  Maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough...I take that back.  I do give out candy at Halloween but I have no complaint about it.

It is possible to value all these holidays as enjoyable secular events.  In my situation there are no immediate family members who take on the religious celebrations with a mind to them being strictly religious gatherings.  Those trapping are left at the door and not discussed in mixed company.

I believe you can celebrate the time as a family, however until God is removed 100% from Christmas, it is not a secular holiday.

Is it possible to be educated, not brainwashed, without ignorance, logical, not deluded...and be Christian?