Challenge for Atheists

[LegendarySandwich]

Yes, he could show us that he exists. Why doesn't he have already done that? Either because he's a prick, or he doesn't exist.

Now, I'm not sure that we could be completely, one-hundred percent certain that it was God. There always exists another explanation for events.That's why we can't really be completely one-hundred percent sure of anything, I think, but we can know things to be true well beyond a reasonable doubt.

[elliebean]

Is it possible for the God of the Bible to reveal things to us in such a way that we can know them for certain?

No; the "God of the Bible" does not exist, therefore it is imposslible for it to reveal anything to anyone.

So how can you (and the rest of humanity), without God, know anything for absolute certainty?

Absolute certainty doesn't exist either, so even if your god did, it would still be impossible for it to do as you propose.

[Persimmon Hamster]

The God of the Bible is all-knowing and all-powerful.

According to whom?  Please cite sources.
Your definition of this god is a logical paradox, so the question seems pointless.  An omnipotent being could lie, and fabricate evidence (beyond our ability to deny) in support of that lie, meaning 100% certainty among human beings cannot exist and that being would be powerless to give it to us, meaning it is not omnipotent.

[Cite134]

Is it possible for the God of the Bible to reveal things to us in such a way that we can know them for certain?

1. Logically possible? Sure. Yet, it's also logically possible for the FSM to reveal the meaning of noodles as well.

2. I don't believe that your god exists, so the question is meaningless.

3. No one knows anything with absolute certainty.

[Thumpalumpacus]

The God of the Bible is all-knowing and all-powerful. Could this God, if He exists, reveal (show/tell/give) things (knowledge/info) to us in such a way that we could know (understand/believe) it for certain (100%)?

To borrow an idea from Carl Sagan, he could put "I am the Lord thy God" in five-hundred-km-long letters on the surface of the Moon where everyone in the world could see them.

Of course, this doesn't address your point about subjective perception of reality, because let's face it, if you truly believed that we're incapable of perceiving the world the way it actually is, you would likely have already done something fatal.

Nor have you shown how it is only your god's "existence" that enables us to have knowledge.  I've noticed that deer don't run off cliffs thinking they can fly.  Would you do so if you were an atheist?

I didn't think so.

[AnimatedDirt]

To borrow an idea from Carl Sagan, he could put "I am the Lord thy God" in five-hundred-km-long letters on the surface of the Moon where everyone in the world could see them.

Thump...I wonder what the probability is that these letters could spontaneously appear in the order you suggest.
Would it be more or less than Man as we know today?  

[Thumpalumpacus]

Discounting the odds of any particular agency putting them there, the strict odds appear to be about 26^16.

As to comparing it to the odds of man being here, they are smaller, given that an evolutionary pathway is composed of an enormous number of contingencies; however, you'd have to explain the pertinence of the question.

[AnimatedDirt]

Discounting the odds of any particular agency putting them there, the strict odds appear to be about 26^16.

As to comparing it to the odds of man being here, they are smaller, given that an evolutionary pathway is composed of an enormous number of contingencies; however, you'd have to explain the pertinence of the question.

I suppose my reservation here is if one believes Man arrived here by a certain probability and that probability is more than the probability of 16 letters appearing on the moon in the specific proportions and order you give, how would that prove God to you?  It seems odd that it would take something with less of a "wow" factor to convince the Atheist to a degree of 100%?  Are there not a couple of things in the cosmos whose "timing", if you will, is at a much higher degree?

I mean, given the fact that Man is here...and all the different things that had to come together...given each factor leading up to Man, its probability and then the next and next and next compounding the end being Man...wouldn't that number dwarf the probability number of 16 letters on the moon reading, "I am the Lord thy God" considerably?  That would give 100% proof?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Discounting the odds of any particular agency putting them there, the strict odds appear to be about 26^16.

As to comparing it to the odds of man being here, they are smaller, given that an evolutionary pathway is composed of an enormous number of contingencies; however, you'd have to explain the pertinence of the question.

I suppose my reservation here is if one believes Man arrived here by a certain probability and that probability is more than the probability of 16 letters appearing on the moon in the specific proportions and order you give, how would that prove God to you?  It seems odd that it would take something with less of a "wow" factor to convince the Atheist to a degree of 100%?  Are there not a couple of things in the cosmos whose "timing", if you will, is at a much higher degree?

I mean, given the fact that Man is here...and all the different things that had to come together...given each factor leading up to Man, its probability and then the next and next and next compounding the end being Man...wouldn't that number dwarf the probability number of 16 letters on the moon reading, "I am the Lord thy God" considerably?  That would give 100% proof?

Because the message has an explicit meaning.  As I said, "discounting the odds of any agency putting them there," which raises the odds considerably.  What are the odds of a Christian god existing, anyway?  That too would be a factor to consider, which is why I wrote "strictly speaking."

Also, you're wrongly thinking that evolution is teleological.  Evolution didn't aim for man to be here.  It's like drawing a royal flush: it's seems like a miracle (especially if you've got a lot of scrilla on the table), but the odds of a royal flush are identical to a hand of 2,7,10, Jack, Joker, in mixed suits.  Exactly the same.

So, before we go any further, you might want to consider:  we've only "beaten the odds" because we appear to be foreordained.  That doesn't, however, mean that we were.

[AnimatedDirt]

Because the message has an explicit meaning.  As I said, "discounting the odds of any agency putting them there," which raises the odds considerably.  What are the odds of a Christian god existing, anyway?  That too would be a factor to consider, which is why I wrote "strictly speaking."

Also, you're wrongly thinking that evolution is teleological.  Evolution didn't aim for man to be here.  It's like drawing a royal flush: it's seems like a miracle (especially if you've got a lot of scrilla on the table), but the odds of a royal flush are identical to a hand of 2,7,10, Jack, Joker, in mixed suits.  Exactly the same.

So, before we go any further, you might want to consider:  we've only "beaten the odds" because we appear to be foreordained.  That doesn't, however, mean that we were.

In context of evolution as you put it, non-teleological. (I learned a new word) the odds remain the same as we are at this point and all instances of chance have lead to this moment in time where Man does exist thus the odds, IMHO, compound, not in a succession of random happenings leading to nothing, but rather those random happenings having lead to Man.

If the letters, then did appear on the moon, the odds fall within the overall odds of Man...and as you also conclude, are smaller than the fact that Man is.  This is why I find it odd that something of more probability would lead to 100% satisfaction of God.

On the odds of a royal flush, if they were the same, wouldn't Vegas then pay out for a hand of 2, 7, 10, J, and Joker in mixed suits?   Actually the odds are almost the same as Man, being that the Joker isn't normally in play, or non-existent.

I certainly could be mis-understanding you...the probability of this is very high.

[Persimmon Hamster]

In context of evolution as you put it, non-teleological. (I learned a new word) the odds remain the same as we are at this point and all instances of chance have lead to this moment in time where Man does exist thus the odds, IMHO, compound, not in a succession of random happenings leading to nothing, but rather those random happenings having lead to Man.

If the letters, then did appear on the moon, the odds fall within the overall odds of Man...and as you also conclude, are smaller than the fact that Man is.  This is why I find it odd that something of more probability would lead to 100% satisfaction of God.

On the odds of a royal flush, if they were the same, wouldn't Vegas then pay out for a hand of 2, 7, 10, J, and Joker in mixed suits?   Actually the odds are almost the same as Man, being that the Joker isn't normally in play, or non-existent.

I certainly could be mis-understanding you...the probability of this is very high.

Pardon me for interrupting.

First of all, you can't calculate or even estimate the probability that we would exist as we do.  It might be very high, or very low.  We need far more data to do so.  

It would also be really difficult to calculate/estimate the odds of those words appearing on the moon, for that matter -- it wouldn't be as simple as 26^16, that's only if you are considering a small mathematical problem with 16 slots and 26 things that can be in those slots.  The actual proposition at hand here is far more complex than that.

How can you compare the probabilities of either, if you know neither?  You can't.  The end.

Also, he did say "spontaneously", an important detail which I took to mean it would happen before my very eyes in a short amount of time, as in not just some geological formation that happens to have been there since before I was around.  If I witnessed something like that happen in real-time, and so did many others, such that I could be convinced I wasn't just seeing things, I would consider it strong evidence that some intelligent being out there is far more powerful than any man or collaboration of men that I am presently aware of.  Though I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that it was a god, or The Christian God.

//edit: In re-reading this thread, I just noticed that you were the one (AnimatedDirt) who added the "spontaneously" clause.  My bad, but that doesn't really change much.

[AnimatedDirt]

First of all, you can't calculate or even estimate the probability that we would exist as we do.  It might be very high, or very low.  We need far more data to do so.

Your contention is not with me, but with the person who gave a probability in number form.

It would also be really difficult to calculate/estimate the odds of those words appearing on the moon, for that matter -- it wouldn't be as simple as 26^16, that's only if you are considering a small mathematical problem with 16 slots and 26 things that can be in those slots.  The actual proposition at hand here is far more complex than that.

How can you compare the probabilities of either, if you know neither?  You can't.  The end.

Also, he did say "spontaneously", an important detail which I took to mean it would happen before my very eyes in a short amount of time, as in not just some geological formation that happens to have been there since before I was around.  If I witnessed something like that happen in real-time, and so did many others, such that I could be convinced I wasn't just seeing things, I would consider it strong evidence that some intelligent being out there is far more powerful than any man or collaboration of men that I am presently aware of.  Though I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that it was a god, or The Christian God.

I'm on my way out...I'll try and get to a reply later this evening.  For now, the words in question come from the Christian Bible and so, it would stand to reason that the one putting the letters up that mimic the bible would be the Christian God.

[Velma]

Is it possible for the God of the Bible to reveal things to us in such a way that we can know them for certain?

First we need to establish that this god of the bible exists.  So far I've not seen any evidence that he does - and that's after spend nearly five years diligently searching.

[Persimmon Hamster]

Your contention is not with me, but with the person who gave a probability in number form.

You are participating in a discussion (that you initiated) about comparing two probabilities that cannot be calculated or estimated.  My contention is that this exercise is meaningless, and not only for that reason.  The underlying question here seems to be, what would it take to convince an atheist that "the God of the Bible" exists?  One person stated what would convince him.  The thing is, I'd wager he was joking, and even if he was completely serious, that doesn't mean it would convince every atheist.  Me, for example.

I'm on my way out...I'll try and get to a reply later this evening.  For now, the words in question come from the Christian Bible and so, it would stand to reason that the one putting the letters up that mimic the bible would be the Christian God.

So, wait a second.  In this thread, you want to tell me that if something stands to reason then it should be considered evidence and therefore proof, but in the other thread, you want to say the opposite?  It seems you may be choosing whichever definition of "proof" helps advance your argument.

Anyway, I disagree that it would stand to reason that "The Christian God" must have put the words there.  Never mind the fact that "The Christian God" could be a great many different things depending on who you ask.  All I would personally consider it evidence for is what I already said -- some intelligent being out there is far more powerful than any man or collaboration of men that I am presently aware of.  For starters, how about some aliens with a giant laser and a keen wit?

[DropLogic]

I am 100% certain that if Earth's atmosphere disappeared that all non-bacterial life would be extinguished.