France's burqa ban - justified or infringement of freedom?

[Whitney]

Muslim women who wear the hijab and niqab explain their choice:  http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/2 ... =allsearch

Having known a muslim woman who came to the US for college on a visa wearing a head covering, I know that anyone who wears something like that will feel just as naked as any other woman would if you took their shirt away.  The student eventually did quit wearing her head covering but even as she found it liberating she still mentioned feeling a bit exposed.  It would be like if a western woman moved in with a primitive tribe and they encouraged her to just wear a loin cloth.  Our ideas of modesty are all made up yet they control to what degree we have to cover up before we feel that our privacy is compromised.

[deekayfry]

I don't agree with any kind of ban.  The premise that a burque is demeaning to women is also wrong.  We make this assumption from our Western perspective.  We also wrongly apply the idea of feminist freedom.  The definition of such freedom differs from society to society.  To an Islamic woman of certain sects, donning a burque is their freedom, and they gladly and proudly embrace it.  What business is it ours to define what we think other people's freedom should be?

My feelings on this are exactly how I feel when I am judged by a theist as to what they think I should be and also the unfair presumption that they make on me as an atheist.  Saying that I am atheist creates stigmas and stereotypes such as immoral, murderous, incorrigible, etc.  Why do we apply the same thought process to a religious rite?

Saying that when an Islamic woman dons a burque is submissive, violated, and uncivilized derives from the same attitude and stereotypes.

France and Europe at large has created a rather dangerous slippery slope.  With a State that promotes and enshrines religious freedom yet arbitrarily bans certain religious practice such as that may as well begin to systematically banning other religious symbols and rites.  Now imagine banning frocks and habits...

[Thumpalumpacus]

Perhaps because it is a thinly-disguised stab at immigrants?"
Yes I think that is it, but you don't want to disguise it to thinly or the voters won't pick up on it.

That was a weak attempt at irony.

I think you have it a bit backwards on this one.  The thinner the disguise, the easier it is to pierce.

My Intel Irony chipset was busy getting a co-processor upgrade.  It appears I missed this.

I realise a racist could easily make the same arguments I am.
I would be suspicious of the motivation of the French government, or someone writing what I am for that matter.
Governments aren't above playing the race card.
In the recent Australian election the conservative party played it shamelessly, and they're likely to win because of it.
The Theo Van Gogh/Ayaan Hirsi Ali affair illustrates to me religion is just, plain, bad.
My view is likely to put me amongst some gruby company.  
I'm not comfortable with this, but I just can't accept being open to all manner of religious madness is a good thing.

First, let me say that I am not trying to paint you with a racist, or culturalist, brush.  If anyone has that impression, let me disabuse them of it now.

Second, as an American, I have a pretty good first-hand idea of how government can play "the race card" in a very subtle manner; to be honest, it is this experience which raises my hackles about this French legislation.  It samcks of "us/them" politics, which we've had for the last 30 years or so.

At the same time, when given the choice, I'd rather choose tolerance, for the simple reason that, to quote Donne, "no man is an island."  The loss of rights for one is the loss of rights for all.

[humblesmurph]

I realise a racist could easily make the same arguments I am.
I would be suspicious of the motivation of the French government, or someone writing what I am for that matter.
Governments aren't above playing the race card.
In the recent Australian election the conservative party played it shamelessly, and they're likely to win because of it.
The Theo Van Gogh/Ayaan Hirsi Ali affair illustrates to me religion is just, plain, bad.
My view is likely to put me amongst some gruby company.  
I'm not comfortable with this, but I just can't accept being open to all manner of religious madness is a good thing.

I admire the honesty of this. Also, I never actually saw the VanGogh flick. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.  It was disturbing.  I didn't know about the aftermath either.  I knew Van Gogh was killed, but not about the Mosque and Church burnings/bombings.  Religion does seem to be just, plain, evil.  While we may not agree on where to draw the line, I think eventually your last two sentences will apply to most reasonable people.  At some point enough is enough.

[Sophus]

I heard an interesting claim yesterday that women prefer to wear covering so as to be judged for who they are and not by what they look like. Of course, ideally, men wouldn't be slimy enough to judge women by looks, but that's the world we live in. This isn't to say that some muslims women are subjugated by this, but I think in a lot of cases this is more of a cultural practice than a religious one. I can completely understand wanting to be judged by who you are and not how you look. Men are pigs.

[humblesmurph]

I heard an interesting claim yesterday that women prefer to wear covering so as to be judged for who they are and not by what they look like. Of course, ideally, men wouldn't be slimy enough to judge women by looks, but that's the world we live in. This isn't to say that some muslims women are subjugated by this, but I think in a lot of cases this is more of a cultural practice than a religious one. I can completely understand wanting to be judged by who you are and not how you look. Men are pigs.

Oink.  Not to be too vulgar but a gay man once told me something I found to be profound.  "We are all slaves to what gets us off". He was referring to his preference for men, but I think applies to physical preferences in general.  Some men like skinny girls, some men like fat girls, some men like tall girls, and so on.  

Don't be so harsh in your judgment of those who place a high priority of the physical form.  We can't help it.  

[Sophus]

I heard an interesting claim yesterday that women prefer to wear covering so as to be judged for who they are and not by what they look like. Of course, ideally, men wouldn't be slimy enough to judge women by looks, but that's the world we live in. This isn't to say that some muslims women are subjugated by this, but I think in a lot of cases this is more of a cultural practice than a religious one. I can completely understand wanting to be judged by who you are and not how you look. Men are pigs.

Oink.  Not to be too vulgar but a gay man once told me something I found to be profound.  "We are all slaves to what gets us off". He was referring to his preference for men, but I think applies to physical preferences in general.  Some men like skinny girls, some men like fat girls, some men like tall girls, and so on.  

Don't be so harsh in your judgment of those who place a high priority of the physical form.  We can't help it.  

Nothing wrong with attraction but once discrimination starts because of it, then we've got a serious problem on our hands. Or if people somehow start blaming the women for being raped. For the most part I see this as an attempt to prevent the men from making unfair judgements that could, for example, keep a women from getting a job she is perfectly qualified for.

[humblesmurph]

I heard an interesting claim yesterday that women prefer to wear covering so as to be judged for who they are and not by what they look like. Of course, ideally, men wouldn't be slimy enough to judge women by looks, but that's the world we live in. This isn't to say that some muslims women are subjugated by this, but I think in a lot of cases this is more of a cultural practice than a religious one. I can completely understand wanting to be judged by who you are and not how you look. Men are pigs.

Oink.  Not to be too vulgar but a gay man once told me something I found to be profound.  "We are all slaves to what gets us off". He was referring to his preference for men, but I think applies to physical preferences in general.  Some men like skinny girls, some men like fat girls, some men like tall girls, and so on.  

Don't be so harsh in your judgment of those who place a high priority of the physical form.  We can't help it.  

Nothing wrong with attraction but once discrimination starts because of it, then we've got a serious problem on our hands. Or if people somehow start blaming the women for being raped. For the most part I see this as an attempt to prevent the men from making unfair judgements that could, for example, keep a women from getting a job she is perfectly qualified for.

Ah, point taken.

[notself]

A full face, head, body covering prevents women from doing any kind of job outside of the home that requires interaction with even one man.  They cannot take the burqa off if they are in public unless they are in an enclosed space with only women.  The burqa limits women and many women buy into these limitations because they fear that if they do not wear it they will be considered "lose" or "impure".  The burqa is much more than a fashion choice or even a religious choice.  It is a symptom of cultural restriction of women's rights.

It is also a serious security issue since almost anything or anyone can be hidden under a burqa.  France is showing basic common sense in banning the burqa.

[George]

I heard an interesting claim yesterday that women prefer to wear covering so as to be judged for who they are and not by what they look like. Of course, ideally, men wouldn't be slimy enough to judge women by looks, but that's the world we live in. This isn't to say that some muslims women are subjugated by this, but I think in a lot of cases this is more of a cultural practice than a religious one. I can completely understand wanting to be judged by who you are and not how you look. Men are pigs.

Surely everyone's guilty of judging people by how they look, even if it's subconcious. Humans are pigs!

[deekayfry]

There is no common sense when a Secular State bans a religious practice, and in this case a very specific religious practice.  It starts with this and it slides rapidly to where the State begins to legally sanction bigotry.  The US Constitution's First Ammendment was ratified to avoid such autrocities.

Banning a religious practice and then justifying that ban based on opinion (restricting their feminine rights, security reasons, etc) is just the beginning.  Make no mistake about it, this is religious persecution specifically aimed at Muslims.  It is demoralizing and sickening.

[Big Mac]

Tough call, as others stated it is a personal choice to wear one that should be protected. However they have to take it off for the photo IDs and they can't have some problem with male police officers dealing with them. They don't like it? Too bad, you immigrated to western society to get out of your craphole, deal with it or get out.

Immigrants are great, but they need to assimilate. Otherwise they shouldn't come over here and expect some kind of special treatment.

[Asmodean]

it is a personal choice to wear one that should be protected.

Not if you work with customers or public services like schools, hospitals or law enforcement. I wouldn't like my doctor to wear a carpet over his head, nor the police officer patrolling the streets. Then I think you should - by law - leave your burquas, niqabs and balaclavas at home except when the circumstances demand preservation of anonymity.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Yeah, I have no argument with requiring the removal of the burqa in places like airports, banks, and government buildings, and for law enforcement/ID purposes.  But the government has no business dictating religious practice that harms no one except perhaps the practitioner, by my lights.  

And not all Muslim women in the West chose to emigrate here.  Many were brought to the West as children, or were fleeing persecution in their homeland, as in Ali's case.

[Big Mac]

it is a personal choice to wear one that should be protected.

Not if you work with customers or public services like schools, hospitals or law enforcement. I wouldn't like my doctor to wear a carpet over his head, nor the police officer patrolling the streets. Then I think you should - by law - leave your burquas, niqabs and balaclavas at home except when the circumstances demand preservation of anonymity.

I didn't clarify enough. Out and about on the streets, sure you can wear your stupid garbage bag or whatever the hell it is.

Public services, to hell with it, take the damn thing off or don't work for the government.