France's burqa ban - justified or infringement of freedom?

[humblesmurph]

I'm in favour of banning the burqa, for the same reasons as the guy here in the YouTube clip
[youtube:3mosey8b]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlkxlzTZc48[/youtube:3mosey8b]

I agree with some  of this.  I hate the burka, because I can't see the goods.  I hate women being treated poorly, because I hate humans being treated poorly.  I agree that burka's and masks should be banned in banks and government buildings, and that private businesses have the right to refuse service/entrance if somebody won't show their face.  But this dude goes too far.

The problem is that these women likely want to wear these burkas, and there is nothing inherently sexist about a piece of clothe.  Heck, how many western women would where the same thing everyday and not have to bother with hair, shaving, and makeup if it was acceptable in their culture? I don't see how we one can say that Islam is oppressive to women, the Koran is no more sexist than the Bibles.  Look at a country like Qatar, that's a Muslim country, and women seem to be getting along relatively well.  Do they have equal status with men, no, but neither do women in the states (less pay for same education, no fem president yet, glass ceilings etc.).   Islam doesn't entail poor treatment of women any more than Christianity.  They are both silly cults, the best we can do is bring extremists and fundies to middle. Vilifying one particular religion isn't going to solve anything.  When women from Islamic countries come to the West, we have to make our best efforts to educate these women and let them make their own decisions based on all the evidence.  We can't legislate feminism.

[Sophus]

I guess for atheists this has a silver lining...we might not be the most hated group anymore.

Yeah, but after hating muslims who are they going to hate?

[Thumpalumpacus]

I agree with some  of this.  I hate the burka, because I can't see the goods.  I hate women being treated poorly, because I hate humans being treated poorly.  I agree that burka's and masks should be banned in banks and government buildings, and that private businesses have the right to refuse service/entrance if somebody won't show their face.  But this dude goes too far.

I completely agree.

The problem is that these women likely want to wear these burkas, and there is nothing inherently sexist about a piece of clothe.  Heck, how many western women would where the same thing everyday and not have to bother with hair, shaving, and makeup if it was acceptable in their culture? I don't see how we one can say that Islam is oppressive to women, the Koran is no more sexist than the Bibles.  Look at a country like Qatar, that's a Muslim country, and women seem to be getting along relatively well.  Do they have equal status with men, no, but neither do women in the states (less pay for same education, no fem president yet, glass ceilings etc.).   Islam doesn't entail poor treatment of women any more than Christianity.  They are both silly cults, the best we can do is bring extremists and fundies to middle. Vilifying one particular religion isn't going to solve anything.  When women from Islamic countries come to the West, we have to make our best efforts to educate these women and let them make their own decisions based on all the evidence.  We can't legislate feminism.

[Emphasis added]

This is a good point, but it's important to remember that both holy texts can be used to justify sexism; it depends 1) on the liberalism or fundamentalism of the believer, and 2) the social, legal, and cultural environment in which the religion is being practiced.

[pinkocommie]

Do they have equal status with men, no, but neither do women in the states (less pay for same education, no fem president yet, glass ceilings etc.).

That's a good point, and led me to try to find some info on whether a salary gap (something I consider at least somewhat a reliable measurement of gender equality within a society) exists in France.

There isn't much recent data to be found, but I did find this -

The 2003 report on gender parity published by the French National Statistics Institute (L’Institut national de la statistique et des ´etudes ´economiques, INSEE) shows that, on average, wages of French women are only about 80% of male wages in the private and semi-public sectors (85% in the public sector). That gender inequality in general remains a problem for France is further documented by the United Nation’s most recent Gender-related development index, where France ranks 17th, behind many of its continental neighbors, the U.S., the U.K. and Australia.

http://www.economics.adelaide.edu.au/workshops/doc/breunig1.pdf

Which leads me to question why some French politicians have been so vocal about women's rights in regard to the burqa when obviously their own country isn't getting the best of marks when it comes to gender equality to begin with.  More and more this seems like a familiar political game - distract the public with something foreign and scary so they stop asking so many questions about how their own government is doing.  Then again, I've never been to France.  There could be some nuances that I'm missing.

I do think there are good reasons to ban face coverings from some places, but shouldn't that be up to the discretion of the business owner/event organizer/etc?  A public ban on an article of clothing seems like a pretty big infringement of personal freedom.

Anyway, great point humblesmurph.

[humblesmurph]

Here's a thought. I'm fine with people wearing a burqa. What I dislike is a person who wears a burqa expecting me to treat them as if they are not wearing a burqa. Wearing a burqa is a choice, it says something about that person's world view. It is an overt statement directly reflecting their world view. Yet they don't want me to see that and react to it. There appears to be a massive double standard to me.

Wearing a burqa says to me. I am Muslim, therefore I place mysticism before reality. I don't trust men. I am better than you, ie arrogant.  Yet a person wearing a burqa expects me to ignore these messages that are sending to me.

I don't understand the underlined. It's not clear to me how covering one's body is connected to feelings of distrust or superiority, let alone necessarily indicative of them.

[Tank]

Here's a thought. I'm fine with people wearing a burqa. What I dislike is a person who wears a burqa expecting me to treat them as if they are not wearing a burqa. Wearing a burqa is a choice, it says something about that person's world view. It is an overt statement directly reflecting their world view. Yet they don't want me to see that and react to it. There appears to be a massive double standard to me.

Wearing a burqa says to me. I am Muslim, therefore I place mysticism before reality. I don't trust men. I am better than you, ie arrogant.  Yet a person wearing a burqa expects me to ignore these messages that are sending to me.

I don't understand the underlined. It's not clear to me how covering one's body is connected to feelings of distrust or superiority, let alone necessarily indicative of them.

One of the reasons cited for wearing a burqa is that men are uncontrollable beasts who will rape a women at the sight of an ankle. As a man I object to being objectified in that way. Particularly as I have done some erotic photography and have been a perfect gentleman in the presence of some very attractive ladies with no clothes on whatsoever.

The arrogant comment is purely my emotional irrational reaction and is probably wrong on my part.

[humblesmurph]

One of the reasons cited for wearing a burqa is that men are uncontrollable beasts who will rape a women at the sight of an ankle. As a man I object to being objectified in that way. Particularly as I have done some erotic photography and have been a perfect gentleman in the presence of some very attractive ladies with no clothes on whatsoever.

The arrogant comment is purely my emotional irrational reaction and is probably wrong on my part.

Never really thought of it that way.  I always thought that they considered showing skin whore-ish. I would love if women in the US all wore short skirts, bikini tops, and 6 inch clear heels, I wouldn't be any more likely to attack them, but I'd certainly enjoy the view.  Alas, unless they are "working" US women usually wear less provocative clothing.  Maybe these burka babes just view showing any skin at all in the same vein as US women view the lovely 6 inch clear heel.

Thanks for the clarification.  I'm not going to try to argue you off your position. It just seems to me that you may be causing yourself unneeded irritation taking offense when none may be intended.  You don't need that at your advanced age  twinkle twinkle.

[philosoraptor]

http://tinyurl.com/yecajx6

This is a really interesting topic for me because I don't know how I feel about it.  On one hand, as an atheist and a woman, I am supportive of this ban because it not only promotes a secular public atmosphere but also strikes a blow against the perpetuation of the subjugation of women.  On the other hand, I don't feel that any government should have the right to dictate people's personal freedoms, including what anyone wears in public.  I want to be allowed to wear my atheist t-shirt in peace, therefore I feel I have to respect a person who wears a cross and someone who wants to wear a burqa, etc.  Additionally, while I myself abhor the subjugation of women, there are some women who believe that their place is below that of a man's.  Does anyone else have the right to tell these women that they can't believe that for themselves?

This is my feeling on it, pretty much verbatim.  While I wish there was no such thing as a burqa, I don't believe anyone has the right to tell a woman she can't wear one.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Which leads me to question why some French politicians have been so vocal about women's rights in regard to the burqa when obviously their own country isn't getting the best of marks when it comes to gender equality to begin with.  More and more this seems like a familiar political game - distract the public with something foreign and scary so they stop asking so many questions about how their own government is doing.  Then again, I've never been to France.  There could be some nuances that I'm missing.

I do think there are good reasons to ban face coverings from some places, but shouldn't that be up to the discretion of the business owner/event organizer/etc?  A public ban on an article of clothing seems like a pretty big infringement of personal freedom.

Anyway, great point humblesmurph.

The fact that the legislation claims to be aimed at "masks" and not burqas makes us secularists look not only dictatorial, but pusillanimous. Those following the debate know fully well that the law is aimed directly at the burqa.

Also, I completely agree with your statement that since we wish the right to dress as we please, we ought not dictate to others what they may wear, as odious as the symbolism of that garment may be.

[Sophus]

The fact that the legislation claims to be aimed at "masks" and not burqas makes us secularists look not only dictatorial, but pusillanimous. Those following the debate know fully well that the law is aimed directly at the burqa.

Also, I completely agree with your statement that since we wish the right to dress as we please, we ought not dictate to others what they may wear, as odious as the symbolism of that garment may be.

Indeed. Dictating what muslim women wear is suppose to be left to muslim men. Why stoop to their level?

[Thumpalumpacus]

hahah, well-put.

[Tank]

One of the reasons cited for wearing a burqa is that men are uncontrollable beasts who will rape a women at the sight of an ankle. As a man I object to being objectified in that way. Particularly as I have done some erotic photography and have been a perfect gentleman in the presence of some very attractive ladies with no clothes on whatsoever.

The arrogant comment is purely my emotional irrational reaction and is probably wrong on my part.

Never really thought of it that way.  I always thought that they considered showing skin whore-ish. I would love if women in the US all wore short skirts, bikini tops, and 6 inch clear heels, I wouldn't be any more likely to attack them, but I'd certainly enjoy the view.  Alas, unless they are "working" US women usually wear less provocative clothing.  Maybe these burka babes just view showing any skin at all in the same vein as US women view the lovely 6 inch clear heel.

Thanks for the clarification.  I'm not going to try to argue you off your position. It just seems to me that you may be causing yourself unneeded irritation taking offense when none may be intended.  You don't need that at your advanced age  twinkle twinkle.

You are quite right. I am creating myself apparently needless aggravation because as you rightly pointed out I am taking offence where none is intended by the person wearing the burqa. I don't claim it's a rational view, emotional reactions are by definition irrational. This is why I am not keen on banning clothing simply because it is intended to make a statement eg Goths don't bother me.

[The Magic Pudding]

hahah, well-put.

It's not really funny though is it.
I've heard Moslem men laughing while explaining why woman wear black in some desert regions.
Well the superior gender wears white because it's hot, woman must be differentiated, let them suffer in black .

I'm not as religiously tolerant as many people here.
Years ago as a teenager I welcomed the idea that I was living in a secular society.
I'm not convinced a society with a history stained with blood from religious rivalry, should accept an influx of people practising a  militant religion.
I agree once someone becomes a resident of a country, they need to be treated fairly.
I don't have a problem with the French approach, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism and the rest should be challenged more often.

[Thumpalumpacus]

hahah, well-put.

It's not really funny though is it.

I like a point when made sarcastically.  I'm pretty sure he wasn't advocating for the gender status of women.

I've heard Moslem men laughing while explaining why woman wear black in some desert regions.
Well the superior gender wears white because it's hot, woman must be differentiated, let them suffer in black .

I've also seen Muslim men who didn't have a problem with women wearing western-style garb.

I'm not as religiously tolerant as many people here.
Years ago as a teenager I welcomed the idea that I was living in a secular society.
I'm not convinced a society with a history stained with blood from religious rivalry, should accept an influx of people practising a  militant religion.
I agree once someone becomes a resident of a country, they need to be treated fairly.
I don't have a problem with the French approach, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism and the rest should be challenged more often.

We'll have to disagree, then; I don't see how restricting what a woman can wear is broadening her freedom.  Indeed, there are many who argue that the net result of the French legislation will be to confine women to the home, because their religion -- or their husbands -- won't permit them the "immodesty" of going without a burqa.

I don't mind challenging a religion.  Nor do I advocate for shrinking civil rights.  Certainly the former can be done without the latter as an effect.

[The Magic Pudding]

hahah, well-put.

It's not really funny though is it.

I like a point when made sarcastically.  I'm pretty sure he wasn't advocating for the gender status of women.

I don't think we have a point of contention here, but I think Sophus was advocating FOR a posititive status of women.

I've heard Moslem men laughing while explaining why woman wear black in some desert regions.
Well the superior gender wears white because it's hot, woman must be differentiated, let them suffer in black .

I've also seen Muslim men who didn't have a problem with women wearing western-style garb.

I'm not as religiously tolerant as many people here.
Years ago as a teenager I welcomed the idea that I was living in a secular society.
I'm not convinced a society with a history stained with blood from religious rivalry, should accept an influx of people practising a  militant religion.
I agree once someone becomes a resident of a country, they need to be treated fairly.
I don't have a problem with the French approach, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism and the rest should be challenged more often.

We'll have to disagree, then; I don't see how restricting what a woman can wear is broadening her freedom.  Indeed, there are many who argue that the net result of the French legislation will be to confine women to the home, because their religion -- or their husbands -- won't permit them the "immodesty" of going without a burqa.

I don't mind challenging a religion.  Nor do I advocate for shrinking civil rights.  Certainly the former can be done without the latter as an effect.

I have heard that argument about "oh no now women will be confined to the home".
So who's going to do the shopping?
Mr No respect for women?

"Confine women to the home."
This is a problematic sentence for me.
I say challenge any bastard who suggests such a thing.