France's burqa ban - justified or infringement of freedom?

[pinkocommie]

http://tinyurl.com/yecajx6

This is a really interesting topic for me because I don't know how I feel about it.  On one hand, as an atheist and a woman, I am supportive of this ban because it not only promotes a secular public atmosphere but also strikes a blow against the perpetuation of the subjugation of women.  On the other hand, I don't feel that any government should have the right to dictate people's personal freedoms, including what anyone wears in public.  I want to be allowed to wear my atheist t-shirt in peace, therefore I feel I have to respect a person who wears a cross and someone who wants to wear a burqa, etc.  Additionally, while I myself abhor the subjugation of women, there are some women who believe that their place is below that of a man's.  Does anyone else have the right to tell these women that they can't believe that for themselves?

Also, the ban technically makes it illegal for anyone to wear an item which covers their face with a few exceptions made for carnivals and the like but it is very well known that the spirit of this ban is a response to the burqa.  Does anyone find this disingenuous of the French government?

[Will]

If they're worried about religious influence, all they really need to do is make sure they don't have Sharia courts and to crack down on imams (or pastors, or priests) who are calling for violence. An abaya isn't going to do any actual harm to anyone because it's just a piece of cloth.

[Tom62]

I'm in favour of banning the burqa, for the same reasons as the guy here in the YouTube clip
[youtube:tutc1gas]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlkxlzTZc48[/youtube:tutc1gas]

[Whitney]

I'm against banning it because doing so violates personal freedom....(i have not yet watched the video or read any of the posts).

A guy on twitter provided this as a comment after seeing this thread posted on there:

@Alamsha_Karnan :
@HappyAtheist Should India ban Burqa? A great Twiitter debate with @AamAdmy. http://bit.ly/8Tcr0K

^thought it was interesting because the two involved seem to be non-american.  By twitter standards it wasn't a bad 'debate', usually on twitter it is @joe "x is bad because y" @Jane "Well screw you bigot, x is awesome"

edit:  While I agree with the video that banning the burqa would help promote feminist values.  I really don't see how violating someone's right to choose what they wear is a proper way to go about promoting women's rights.  Not to mention that many of these women would feel like they are naked without being covered (at first, they would get use to it eventually like a woman I knew in college who slowly kept removing unnecessary coverings until she was Americanized).  As far as security is concerned, they can just choose to not go to places that require security or try and hope they get a female officer.  We shouldn't have to make special accommodations just because of someone's religious preference...then anyone could make up some religion and start demanding special treatments (like those idiots with the weed religion, rastafrian).  Similarly, I also do think that the burqa should be banned from being worn when taking identification photos.  That is where their right to choose their clothing is trampled by society's right to make sure everyone is properly identified so that no legal or security confusion occurs.

[AlP]

I've stopped liking Condell's videos so much. He's overly hostile. I agree with him on some things though. With regard to burqas, I think that unless someone is causing harm or a public nuisance, I question the reason to restrict their freedom. The issue for me is more whether women wearing burquas are doing so freely. Some surely are and I respect their freedom. If they aren't wearing them freely though, rather than defend their wearing of burqas in public places, I would defend their freedom to not wear them. It is plausible to me that many women wearing burqas are themselves being harmed. I also think that encouraging them to not make themselves completely anonymous in the eyes of society and be a nobody outside of their home might be a good idea.

[karadan]

I'm in favour of the ban. I like integration and multiculturalism but I'm not a big fan of letting an entire group of people create a 'Londonistan' enclave in another country. It becomes dangerous when entire swathes of a town/city are unable to speak the language of the adoptive country. That leads to people asking for the exact same laws of their mother nation to be introduced in the country they've migrated to. Such double standards erode social order. The burqa is just one small aspect of this.

Most shopping centres in the UK have banned hoodies because statistically, people who walk around with their hoodies up are young trouble-makers. It is much harder to catch them on CCTV with a hoodie up. It is just an example of how our laws can and do restrict people from wearing specific kinds of clothes. Currently, people walking into a bank have to take off their motorbike helmets. People wearing a burqa do not have to conform to this. I think that's a bad double standard.

With the UK at least, I feel some ethnic groups have really started to take the piss out of our hospitality. This is a country which has already-established laws and policies which its citizens have to live by but the right wing islamic groups have got our government scared, so they get special treatment. They will never pass laws banning the burqa here. The banning move by the French authorities might have logical reasons written on paper but I think there's also something else going on. They are sending a message that the French still own and run their country. If you immigrate there, you live by its rules or leave. I've got no issue with that way of thinking and I believe it will help integration in the long run. The people really against the ban will go back to their country of origin.

Personally I think people who wear burqas look sinister. Just my opinion though.

[Whitney]

Most shopping centres in the UK have banned hoodies because statistically, people who walk around with their hoodies up are young trouble-makers. It is much harder to catch them on CCTV with a hoodie up. It is just an example of how our laws can and do restrict people from wearing specific kinds of clothes. Currently, people walking into a bank have to take off their motorbike helmets. People wearing a burqa do not have to conform to this. I think that's a bad double standard.

Rules at shopping centers and banks aren't necessarily laws...of course individual businesses should be allowed to ban people from entering the premises if their face is covered for security purposes.

[karadan]

Most shopping centres in the UK have banned hoodies because statistically, people who walk around with their hoodies up are young trouble-makers. It is much harder to catch them on CCTV with a hoodie up. It is just an example of how our laws can and do restrict people from wearing specific kinds of clothes. Currently, people walking into a bank have to take off their motorbike helmets. People wearing a burqa do not have to conform to this. I think that's a bad double standard.

Rules at shopping centers and banks aren't necessarily laws...of course individual businesses should be allowed to ban people from entering the premises if their face is covered for security purposes.

Actually that's a good point. I hadn't made the distinction between a rule and a law.. I can't think of any UK laws which prohibit a certain kind of clothing although it might be against the law to wear anything with a swastika on it, but then people don't wear burqas simply to piss people off. There is, of course, a law prohibiting anyone not wearing any clothes in public.

[G-Roll]

On the other hand, I don't feel that any government should have the right to dictate people's personal freedoms, including what anyone wears in public. I want to be allowed to wear my atheist t-shirt in peace, therefore I feel I have to respect a person who wears a cross and someone who wants to wear a burqa, etc.

i completely agree with this.

I'm in favor of the ban. I like integration and multiculturalism but I'm not a big fan of letting an entire group of people create a 'Londonistan' enclave in another country. It becomes dangerous when entire swathes of a town/city are unable to speak the language of the adoptive country. That leads to people asking for the exact same laws of their mother nation to be introduced in the country they've migrated to. Such double standards erode social order. The burqa is just one small aspect of this.  

however i also agree with this statement as i have heard in some places in frace sharia law is legal now.

in the end i dont believe the government should impose upon ones freedom of religion. i think that banning religious clothing of any kind is the wrong move. i think it was Will who mentioned monitoring the imams and local area. thats sounds better to me. although i dont live in france and dont know the situation.

[Sophus]

Now Islam is not an established religion in Italy. What's going on with Europe? France and their burqa ban, Ireland's blasphemy law and this?!

[Whitney]

Now Islam is not an established religion in Italy. What's going on with Europe? France and their burqa ban, Ireland's blasphemy law and this?!

Anti-Islam laws:  It's a mass panic based on a fear that has been blown way out of proportion by the media.

However, I'm not sure what in the world made Ireland think blasphemy laws were a good idea...unless that was some round about way of preventing people from practicing Islam too.

I guess for atheists this has a silver lining...we might not be the most hated group anymore.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Now Islam is not an established religion in Italy. What's going on with Europe? France and their burqa ban, Ireland's blasphemy law and this?!

Well, they're more tolerant than us Americans, that's what.  /snark

[skwurll]

I guess for atheists this has a silver lining...we might not be the most hated group anymore.

That's one way of looking at it.

My own opinion on the matter, if people want to wear burqas, let them. As long as they don't try to force the wearing (or not wearing) of burqas on others.

We can all get along if we don't nitpick the other's choices.

[Asmodean]

I would ban face-covering clothing except where the conditions demand them, so I'm not opposed to a burka ban. However, this is an issue so far down on my priority list that I wouldn't mind letting the opposition have their way without losing any sleep over it.

[Tank]

Here's a thought. I'm fine with people wearing a burqa. What I dislike is a person who wears a burqa expecting me to treat them as if they are not wearing a burqa. Wearing a burqa is a choice, it says something about that person's world view. It is an overt statement directly reflecting their world view. Yet they don't want me to see that and react to it. There appears to be a massive double standard to me.

Wearing a burqa says to me. I am Muslim, therefore I place mysticism before reality. I don't trust men. I am better than you, ie arrogant.  Yet a person wearing a burqa expects me to ignore these messages that are sending to me.