Atheism is Abdication

[Edward the Theist]

If I may be so bold: the discomfort you feel may be your faith waning.

Faith in what? God? I've never doubted God exists. Honestly, I'm not capable of it. But faith in my previous theory, yeah, I mean, it's helped me to contemplate it, but ultimately I am wrong. God can't be what I described previously.

Previously, I hypothesized that prior to the universe, God was consciousness intersecting eternity. But if that were the case, he would be a consciousness with no memory, no desires, and no motivation to change. Thus, the universe would never have been made. The universe is here, so that can't be an accurate description of God.

What I'm thinking now is that in order to understand God, we may have to be Christ (I define Christ as God conscious of Himself from within His creation). I don't think we can actually see God unless we are Christ. I don't think our contingent mind can do it. I think the best we can do is end up with a blank consciousness staring at eternity.

You try to convince others as a way to convince yourself.  You are in this limbo because of your inquisitive mind.  Faith, not science, is what you seem to need.

I'm not exactly sure how you meant that, but you might be absolutely correct. In the end, for living human beings, faith may be the only way to end up seeing God. And don't discount faith. Most of the science you believe you take on faith. In fact, almost everything we think we know is really faith. It even takes faith to say there is no God.

You seem to be taking the agnostic approach to god. The true agnostic (imo) can't really be a theist.  Agnosticism is about following the evidence, not creating it.  It requires that we not make conclusions not supported by facts.  No matter how close you come to God with your admittedly interesting theories, you will still have to make a leap of faith to get to it. In your heart of hearts, you know that you haven't proven god's existence.  At best you've shown yourself that god may exist.

I agree with you there. I don't even have to go to my heart of hearts. I have not proven God exists, plain and simple. After 17 years of trying, I don't think it's possible to prove in the normal sense of the word. Like consciousness, we can only prove it to ourselves. We can never prove it to anyone else. Like precognition; I know what happened to me, but I can't prove that to you. Like the paramecium: though they display will and the capacity to learn, I have yet to see anyone call them conscious but me. But so what? None of that proves God exists.

What is God? He is a monistic conscious entity and from his substance the entire universe is made. That is not the same kind of thing as you and I. We may be of His substance, but I think we are a different order of existence. I think we are like His dream characters. Which means, unless we become Christ, unless we become whatever the heck Jesus was, we aren't going to understand Him.

But as for there being no God. If I exist, He must exist.

Reread your post.  You are displaying a burning desire to make something more out of existence than just the physical.  Is it possible that your reason is clouded?  Sometimes we see what we want to see.  A scientist has to have some sort of objectivity.  She has to allow for the possibility that her initial hypothesis may be flawed.  You seem unwilling to do that. You seem like you are going to keep searching until you find god.  You could save yourself a lot of time and trouble by just having faith.

I think you're right. What does Paul say about faith? "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

What is interesting about my theory though is that it takes you right to the edge. If you take all the classical arguments for the existence of God, they all lead to a God that is nothing like Christians imagine (most Christians don't know that). They take you to the same place I ended up, a place before the physical universe where God is simply conscious in eternity, but that God cannot create anything. And yet here I am, and here you are. There has never been a creation like you or me in the history of the universe. We are utterly unique. When we die, what we were becomes extinct, never to be created again. So the God of the arguments can't really be God. The real God takes a different kind of mind to see.

I'm thinking now that faith creates that mind.

Did you ever see the movie, AI? In it, David, the little robot boy, finds the Blue Fairy, a symbol for God, and for eons can never approach it, because he's trapped in that vehicle. Finally, when he is able, it crumbles before him. That's where I'm at right now.

The God I have approached with my natural, rational, logical mind does not exist. That was an idol. The Father I pray to in my journals, the one who's been with me since I was a child, the one Jesus talks about, I am only going to approach in this life through faith.

But remember, you have the same problem as an atheist. Because all you can do is abdicate before the questions of the universe and its origin. All you can do is the opposite of faith, which is to turn away and not ask any hard questions. All that does is turn a human being into an animal.

Now why would any human being want to return to the level of an animal?

I think the answer to that is sum total of atheism.

[Asmodean]

Your "theory" is not an actual theory. It's a weak hypothesis at best. I'd call it musings or speculations, really, but my bar may be somewhat high for some.

[Edward the Theist]

I would. As an advancement in one's understanding of how the world really works atheism could be considered as spiritual growth.

You guys are so absolutely full of shit it's beyond me. "We're not a religion; We're not! Of course, we come together in a community; we solicit donations, we have a code of conduct for our...ahem...community, and we have a form of spiritual growth.

But if you say we believe there is no God, you don't understand us. If you say we're a religion, you don't understand us. We don't know how consciousness works or how the universe began so we simply deny both, but if you say we're fundamentalist, you don't understand us.

Is this some kind of joke? Do you really take yourself seriously?

 

Just because one has reached the conclusion that God is very highly unlikely doesn't make one any less spiritual in terms of appreciating the intricate work of evolution or the magnificent effects of plate tectonics or the compassion of humanity all around one, every day. You see as God does not exist all that has ever been said or done in his name is effectively just been done by nature, no God required. It's only when one admits that no God is required that you can truly see reality for what it is, not through the smeared perception of a person who is trying to second guess a purpose and meaning thrust upon them by superstitious beliefs. God is not required to be spiritual, that comes from within the person.

 

[Edward the Theist]

Your "theory" is not an actual theory. It's a weak hypothesis at best. I'd call it musings or speculations, really, but my bar may be somewhat high for some.

Fine. Hypothesis.

[hismikeness]

Brain barf.

  or   . Is that acceptable and within the confines of the mission statement?

[humblesmurph]

I'm sorry, are you saying there's spiritual growth in atheism?

I would. As an advancement in one's understanding of how the world really works atheism could be considered as spiritual growth. Just because one has reached the conclusion that God is very highly unlikely doesn't make one any less spiritual in terms of appreciating the intricate work of evolution or the magnificent effects of plate tectonics or the compassion of humanity all around one, every day. You see as God does not exist all that has ever been said or done in his name is effectively just been done by nature, no God required. It's only when one admits that no God is required that you can truly see reality for what it is, not through the smeared perception of a person who is trying to second guess a purpose and meaning thrust upon them by superstitious beliefs. God is not required to be spiritual, that comes from within the person.

Respectfully, the understood meaning of the word "spiritual" entails somethings non physical.  

Do you believe in a non physical spiritual self?

If not, could you elaborate on your meaning of the word "spiritual".  

Edit: I came back to clean up the quotes.

[Asmodean]

Your "theory" is not an actual theory. It's a weak hypothesis at best. I'd call it musings or speculations, really, but my bar may be somewhat high for some.

Fine. Hypothesis.

Thank you. Theory is a much abused word and, even though it means little in a personal case, if enough people regard something which is not as a valid theory, well, that amounts to mold on the shine of science.

[Kylyssa]

B. Atheism will destroy civilization if it gains any real power. I want to stop it. Oh, I know, all the bad in the name of religion. Well, religion built the world, too. Atheism will send us back to the trees. Atheism is a hatred for humanity. It is, by that definition, Satanic. It is evil.

Hatred of humanity?  I've dedicated my life to helping homeless people get off the street, not just by token service at soup kitchens at Christmas but by taking 17 homeless teens into my home to live as well as working in soup kitchens, shelters, literacy programs, job training programs and more  - that demonstrates a hatred of humanity?  Want to know my reason for doing such things?  I do it because I know that only people can help people.  If people don't help, no one will and people will suffer when we could have done something.

I do find it refreshing you say we hate humanity because most Christians we encounter claim we worship humanity.

Atheists aren't satanic or evil. They're people. But they are people who have abdicated spiritual growth, and therefore they unwittingly become the medium of atheism.

Again, because I'll probably be banned for what I just said, so let me make the record clear before I am: Atheists are people. I don't hate atheists. I hate atheism. Anyone reading this who can't make that distinction, I'm sorry, but that's not my problem. If I get banned from here, I'll go to another forum, or to a blog (s), and I'll start using my blog more.

The bottom line is, atheism must be stopped at all costs.

I'm sure people would rather you were honest.  I'm being dead serious.  You have no idea how refreshing it is for a Christian to admit they hate atheism rather than to pretend that they don't.  The unfortunate thing is that there will be a stumbling block to having any intelligent discussions - you've made up your mind about us already and you are unwilling to listen to what we have to say.  You accuse us of deciding not to grow spiritually but you've decided not to grow intellectually.  You will hear no information from us other than through a filter that says it's all lies.  C'mon, we've read the Bible, if you think we worship Satan, you probably think we emulate him.

It's also refreshing to hear you honestly say you'd stop at nothing to destroy atheism.  We can now work with the knowledge that you don't feel bound by law or by the social contract.  

The Church has failed to stop it. In fact, it creates more atheists now than it does believers.

Have you ever wondered why that might be?  Your House of God is filthy and corrupt.  It's killing innocents, it's actively harming people.  I'm not talking about the Crusades or the Inquisition or anything else that happened hundreds of years ago, I'm talking about what is happening in the world today.  So many decent people are turning away from the filth and corruption.  Maybe they should be trying to fix their church instead of fleeing the evil Christianity has come to represent to them, I don't know.

Why not spread Christianity by cleaning your own house?  No one wants to buy a filthy house with rats, termites, cockroaches and religious violence in it.  No one will buy that house, especially when the main advertisement says "buy it or be tortured for eternity."  Try stopping the atrocities being committed right now in the name of Christianity and maybe people will turn to Christianity if it becomes a clean and kindly religion.

Who is going to want to buy into a religion that is supporting the murder of homosexuals in Uganda, torturing and murdering children in Africa through exorcism, promoting the spread of AIDS in Africa, supporting "corrective rape" of lesbians in South Africa, and turning it's head from the approximately 400,000 children discarded by American Christians each year?  Who wants a religion whose only currency is hatred, harm and threats?

I'd suggest you start with the kids discarded or abused for religious reasons.  You could probably do the most to stop this problem as I doubt you could, individually, do much about the assorted Christianity related problems in Africa.  It would be more practical to start on abuses in the Americas and Europe.  I think that if you really put your mind to it, you could change some minds to make it unacceptable to beat, neglect, emotionally abuse, or eject from the home a child who does not conform to Christian standards.  If you convinced a few people, maybe they'd convince a few more and the movement for Christians withdraw support for and to actively disapprove of Christians who abuse, neglect or eject their children might spread enough to save lives.

Another reason to start with that particular abuse is because so many Christians are already against it but just don't know it's happening.  Also, you'd stand a better chance of retaining those children as church members.  Many kids I helped turned on Christianity because they saw it as the reason they were subjected to horrors.  And before you say it, no, I didn't turn them against Christianity, I took those who wanted it to church and kept my absence of religion a secret.

I don't expect a response from you because I now believe that I cannot actually communicate with you, due to your statements.  You seem to be here simply to extract bits to proselytize with.  But it's my hope (yes, hope) that you'll read and understand the last several paragraphs and get out of your cerebral bubble and feel something.  It is also my hope that you'll do something about it.  It is a bit uncomfortable to my pride to ask you to but lives are more important than pride.

[pinkocommie]

I am a jackass and my comment makes no sense.  

[Tank]

Brain barf.

  or   . Is that acceptable and within the confines of the mission statement?

Fair point. I withdraw my comment about 'jocular endorsement' as one can laugh at something whether or not one agrees with it.

Apologies.
Chris

[humblesmurph]

The God I have approached with my natural, rational, logical mind does not exist. That was an idol. The Father I pray to in my journals, the one who's been with me since I was a child, the one Jesus talks about, I am only going to approach in this life through faith.

But remember, you have the same problem as an atheist. Because all you can do is abdicate before the questions of the universe and its origin. All you can do is the opposite of faith, which is to turn away and not ask any hard questions. All that does is turn a human being into an animal.

Now why would any human being want to return to the level of an animal?

I think the answer to that is sum total of atheism.

The atheist has no problems except the bigotry of a largely theist world.   You use of the word "abdicate" is puzzling.  Is it your assertion that every person is supposed to figure out the origin of the universe?  If you take atheists to be a religion, our "shamans and priests" are actually trying to figure it out.  The vast majority of people at the forefront of trying to figure out the origin of the universe are atheist scientists.  You ask the "hard questions" because you have an inquisitive mind, not because you are theist.  It's the theists who bury their heads in a single book written hundreds of years ago and think that it contains all of the answers--or that they can sit and simply ponder the "hard questions".   If it was so easy to know, we'd already know it.  One has to roll up her sleeves and get dirty to figure this stuff out.   Most of us don't have time to do that, it doesn't mean we are "abdicating" anything.  

 Btw, humans are animals, we are just the smartest ones on this planet.

[Tank]

I'm sorry, are you saying there's spiritual growth in atheism?

I would. As an advancement in one's understanding of how the world really works atheism could be considered as spiritual growth. Just because one has reached the conclusion that God is very highly unlikely doesn't make one any less spiritual in terms of appreciating the intricate work of evolution or the magnificent effects of plate tectonics or the compassion of humanity all around one, every day. You see as God does not exist all that has ever been said or done in his name is effectively just been done by nature, no God required. It's only when one admits that no God is required that you can truly see reality for what it is, not through the smeared perception of a person who is trying to second guess a purpose and meaning thrust upon them by superstitious beliefs. God is not required to be spiritual, that comes from within the person.

Respectfully, the understood meaning of the word "spiritual" entails somethings non physical.  

Do you believe in a non physical spiritual self?

If not, could you elaborate on your meaning of the word "spiritual".  

Edit: I came back to clean up the quotes.

Atheist spirituality could well be considered an oxymoron  

I read this book and it changed my view on the subject http://www.amazon.co.uk/Book-Atheist-Sp ... 059306139X

One does get into a semantic argument as the historic use of the word spiritual has had 'extra bodily' implications. I'm not a philosopher but the gist of the book is that the feeling of 'spirituality' is simply the same as 'love' or 'hate' in that it's just a feeling that one has under particular circumstances and as such is just as valid in the physical world as the non-physical world.

[philosoraptor]

For atheists, the universe needs no explanation. Atheists are not troubled by existentialistic musings. That's one of the advantages to giving up belief in God.

Once again,  not true.  I've already explained once why atheists still suffer existential angst, and I know you read that post because you commented on it.  Giving up God only gives us the freedom to take responsibility for our own lives-it does not excuse us from having to think critically before we make decisions.

I thought my God was personal. I thought that's how it was. But I don't think so anymore. I thought (g)od was a force, and we psychologically invented a "God" to channel that force. But that can't be true. Nor can it be true that there is no God. Sorry, to offend you, but atheism is just bullshit. Pure and simple. It is abdication. It is avoidance of the discomfort I'm currently going through. That's it.

You've already admitted you were mistaken once.  How can you be so sure you aren't mistaken again?

B. Atheism will destroy civilization if it gains any real power. I want to stop it. Oh, I know, all the bad in the name of religion. Well, religion built the world, too. Atheism will send us back to the trees. Atheism is a hatred for humanity. It is, by that definition, Satanic. It is evil.

No.  I love humanity, and that's part of the reason why I am an atheist.  I love humanity and I respect it, because I believe thisl ife is all we are given.  There are no guarantees that anything comes after this, and so we owe it to ourselves and to each other to always be kind to each other and to make the best of the time we have been given.  I really wish you'd stop making assertions about atheism as if you somehow know us better than we know ourselves.  You don't.

But as for there being no God. If I exist, He must exist.

Again, wrong.  Perhaps you could benefit some from reading David Hume.  I'd recommend you start with An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding.  The statement you've made here is pretty similar to one of the Cartesian arguments that has been disproved time and time again.

You guys are so absolutely full of shit it's beyond me. "We're not a religion; We're not! Of course, we come together in a community; we solicit donations, we have a code of conduct for our...ahem...community, and we have a form of spiritual growth.

But if you say we believe there is no God, you don't understand us. If you say we're a religion, you don't understand us. We don't know how consciousness works or how the universe began so we simply deny both, but if you say we're fundamentalist, you don't understand us.

Is this some kind of joke? Do you really take yourself seriously?

Now you just sound like an angry child.  Because you can't comprehend it, than it can't possibly be?  Get over yourself.  You aren't an atheist-stop pretending you know how real atheists think and behave.

[Sophus]

For atheists, the universe needs no explanation. Atheists are not troubled by existentialistic musings. That's one of the advantages to giving up belief in God.

Not true. I require real explanations, not any hypothetical explanation that pops into my head. And as Kylyssa already pointed out, you don't require an explanation for God or his inception.

Okay, first, God would not have an inception; if he did he wouldn't be God. So, you can say God doesn't exist and we can debate the right or wrong of that, but to go on about the creation of God is...what's a polite word...unenlightened.

I'm aware that this is the common meme in our culture, however, not all gods are without inception (see Greek Mythology). A freer theistic thinker is able to question the inception of god and whether or not he/she/it has one. Although at the most all you can say is "I don't know." It's amazing that people do not only know that he/she/it exists but can tell you ever detail of his/her/its life and being. :raised:  That is incredibly closed minded. I do not think my existence disproved god.

B. Atheism will destroy civilization if it gains any real power. I want to stop it. Oh, I know, all the bad in the name of religion. Well, religion built the world, too. Atheism will send us back to the trees. Atheism is a hatred for humanity. It is, by that definition, Satanic. It is evil.

You are a fruitcake.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I hate atheism. Yes. I don't hate atheists; actually I prefer atheists to the religious people I know. But I hate atheism with a rather extreme passion. Thank God it's all imaginary. Perhaps I'll wake up one day and it will all be gone.

Bias spotted, in this thread.