the universe is designed

[Tank]

the universe is either intended or unintended.  it is either the result of blind forces or intelligent forces.  if you can think of a third way let me know.

The third way is, in fact, the true way, it is we don't know. See how easy that is, 'We don't know.'! It's not the end of the world to admit it and I, as a nominally rational individual, find it is the only stand point that I personally feel prepared to support. We don't know why the universe exists or how it came into being, that is simply a gap in our knowledge and only an fool would shoe horn a mystical answer into that gap in their understanding.  

HT you realise that a few hundred years ago, or even today in some primitive parts of the world, you would believe whole heartedly that demons and curses created illness, disease and death. As you live in a 1st world country I assume you make use of the modern medical facilities and go to a trained and professional doctor when you are ill? Or do you prey and hope for the best or maybe visit a witch doctor? You see how rationality and an enquiring mind are essential in delivering a better understanding of how the world works? A mind drowned in dogma, superstition, wish fulfilment and ignorance is no use to man nor beast.

HT there is nothing wrong with admitting ignorance, it's the first step towards real learning, you don't have the answers to why the universe is here or the process by which it was started because nobody does, do they?

[harriet_tubman]

the universe is either intended or unintended.  it is either the result of blind forces or intelligent forces.  if you can think of a third way let me know.

The third way is, in fact, the true way, it is we don't know. See how easy that is, 'We don't know.'! It's not the end of the world to admit it and I, as a nominally rational individual, find it is the only stand point that I personally feel prepared to support. We don't know why the universe exists or how it came into being, that is simply a gap in our knowledge and only an fool would shoe horn a mystical answer into that gap in their understanding.  

wrong.  where we see fine-tuning it is rational to infer intelligence and design.  let's say we saw stonehenge.  it would be ridiculous to conclude that we cannot infer that it is designed.

HT you realise that a few hundred years ago, or even today in some primitive parts of the world, you would believe whole heartedly that demons and curses created illness, disease and death. As you live in a 1st world country I assume you make use of the modern medical facilities and go to a trained and professional doctor when you are ill? Or do you prey and hope for the best or maybe visit a witch doctor?

i never said i believed in demons or superstition.  i said i believe the cosmos is designed since as stephen hawking elucidated it is fine-tuned.

You see how rationality and an enquiring mind are essential in delivering a better understanding of how the world works? A mind drowned in dogma, superstition, wish fulfilment and ignorance is no use to man nor beast.

i love the way atheists believe they are rational.  you don't think theists believe they are rational as well?  is it rational conclude that stonehenge is the result of random forces in spite of its fine-tuning?  no, it's not.

HT there is nothing wrong with admitting ignorance, it's the first step towards real learning, you don't have the answers to why the universe is here or the process by which it was started because nobody does, do they?

tank, as an atheist you believe that you KNOW there is no creator.  if you admit ignorance then you're an agnostic.  so then you are just as guilty of claiming knowledge as i am.

[Tank]

tank, as an atheist you believe that you KNOW there is no creator.  if you admit ignorance then you're an agnostic.  so then you are just as guilty of claiming knowledge as i am.

Don't tell me what I think you ignoramus.

[curiosityandthecat]

i love the way atheists believe they are rational.  you don't think theists believe they are rational as well?

Difference being that only one of them is correct.  

[Tank]

the universe is either intended or unintended.  it is either the result of blind forces or intelligent forces.  if you can think of a third way let me know.

The third way is, in fact, the true way, it is we don't know. See how easy that is, 'We don't know.'! It's not the end of the world to admit it and I, as a nominally rational individual, find it is the only stand point that I personally feel prepared to support. We don't know why the universe exists or how it came into being, that is simply a gap in our knowledge and only an fool would shoe horn a mystical answer into that gap in their understanding.  

wrong.  where we see fine-tuning it is rational to infer intelligence and design.  let's say we saw stonehenge.  it would be ridiculous to conclude that we cannot infer that it is designed.

Where you see fine tuning is your problem not mine.

HT you realise that a few hundred years ago, or even today in some primitive parts of the world, you would believe whole heartedly that demons and curses created illness, disease and death. As you live in a 1st world country I assume you make use of the modern medical facilities and go to a trained and professional doctor when you are ill? Or do you prey and hope for the best or maybe visit a witch doctor?

i never said i believed in demons or superstition.

Belief in God IS superstitious.

i said i believe the cosmos is designed since as stephen hawking elucidated it is fine-tuned.

He never said it was fine tuned he said 'seemed' to be.

You see how rationality and an enquiring mind are essential in delivering a better understanding of how the world works? A mind drowned in dogma, superstition, wish fulfilment and ignorance is no use to man nor beast.

i love the way atheists believe they are rational.

I never said atheists were rational I said 'I am nominally rational' I didn't speak for any other person atheist or theist. Please read what is written before attempting a reply in future.

you don't think theists believe they are rational as well?  

Theists can be rational until they are shown why they are wrong, they then can be considered irrational and delusional if they stick with there superstition.

is it rational conclude that stonehenge is the result of random forces in spite of its fine-tuning?  no, it's not.

Stonehenge is a construction. The universe is not. With a bit of care and attention the current state of the Universe can be deduced by the simple interaction of certain forces and matter. No supernatural intervention required after the start of spacetime (a scientific concept, look it up). And as has been pointed out nobody knows in detail how and why Spacetime came about.

HT there is nothing wrong with admitting ignorance, it's the first step towards real learning, you don't have the answers to why the universe is here or the process by which it was started because nobody does, do they?

tank, as an atheist you believe that you KNOW there is no creator.  if you admit ignorance then you're an agnostic.  so then you are just as guilty of claiming knowledge as i am.

I have not seen a rational, reasonable and scientifically rigorous argument that God exists, so I don't KNOW God does not exist any more than you KNOW he does. Agnosticism gives equality of chance to the existance or non-existance of a deity. You claim knowledge of the supernatural!

So HT, show me you rational, reasonable and scientifically rigorous argument that God exists and I'll consider it.

[Whitney]

the universe is either intended or unintended.  it is either the result of blind forces or intelligent forces.  if you can think of a third way let me know.

The third way is, in fact, the true way, it is we don't know. See how easy that is, 'We don't know.'! It's not the end of the world to admit it and I, as a nominally rational individual, find it is the only stand point that I personally feel prepared to support. We don't know why the universe exists or how it came into being, that is simply a gap in our knowledge and only an fool would shoe horn a mystical answer into that gap in their understanding.  

wrong.  where we see fine-tuning it is rational to infer intelligence and design.  let's say we saw stonehenge.  it would be ridiculous to conclude that we cannot infer that it is designed.

The universe is not stonehenge; if you want to compare the universe to something compare it to a pile of rocks that has a faint smiley face pattern that also looks like a duck to others.

ps.  stop starting almost every sentence with "wrong" if you aren't going to back up that statement....it makes you look even more childish.

[Whitney]

tank, as an atheist you believe that you KNOW there is no creator.  if you admit ignorance then you're an agnostic.  so then you are just as guilty of claiming knowledge as i am.

Strike 2....stop telling people what they believe.

It's not our problem if you don't know what atheist theist gnostic and agnostic mean...go look them up and quick trying to force your uneducated definitions on others.

[McQ]

Are you serious about your assertions or just pulling our collective legs?

yes

I'm not here to play games with you. Answer questions directly, please.

Moving on, if that is true...then you can only make your assertions based on what someone in a christian church has told you to say, or based on what you've read in christian-based literature. Correct?

i'm not a christian and don't believe the bible.

Where do you get your knowledge of the assertions you are making? Be specific and elaborate fully, please.

Answer these for me please, because it is absolutely useless to try and have any type of discussion until your background, motives, and education are sorted out.

only the truth matters, it doesn't matter how the truth is said or who says it.

You are wrong. Only evidence matters. And truth is something you seem to define differently than I do. Where is the evidence to back up your assertions? Be specific and elaborate fully on them, once again.

my background is i'm american.  my motives are to learn.  my education is a bachelor of arts.

What is your level of science education? Do you understand what a bad analogy is?

now, please criticize my ideas.

I will criticize the one of the things you seem not to understand yet keep using an your argument. You seem to think your analogies are representative of reality. They are not. Your analogies to describe your ideas are simply flawed. You claim you are here to learn, yet you have not demonstrated in any one of your posts a desire to learn. You have simply repeated assertions that are patently false, over and over. You have not even tried to understand why you are wrong.

I will not waste time in debate with anyone who does this. In my opinion, you are here to play games and see what kind of trouble you can make. If I don't see otherwise from you soon, your time here will be very brief. Trolling is not something I have patience with, and you are pushing it.

[harriet_tubman]

I will not waste time in debate with anyone who does this. In my opinion, you are here to play games and see what kind of trouble you can make. If I don't see otherwise from you soon, your time here will be very brief. Trolling is not something I have patience with, and you are pushing it.

McQ, how do you expect to conduct an honest search for the truth if you get so angry when people disagree with you.  seriously, why should you get angry if someone disagrees with you.  if i'm stupid then why should that make you angry?  

Where do you get your knowledge of the assertions you are making? Be specific and elaborate fully, please.
 

it's called common sense.  where there is a design there is a designer.  random forces don't design.  common sense.  now, how something comes from nothing, i don't know and neither do you, common sense doesn't teach us that.

Where is the evidence to back up your assertions? Be specific and elaborate fully on them, once again.

where is your evidence that random forces can create a star which fuses hydrogen into helium?  my assertions are based on the common sense notion that only intelligence can write code as seen in the dna code.

What is your level of science education?

pretty high. what's yours?

Do you understand what a bad analogy is?

yes, do you?

You seem to think your analogies are representative of reality. They are not. Your analogies to describe your ideas are simply flawed.

demonstrate why

You have simply repeated assertions that are patently false, over and over.

evidence please

[Asmodean]

if you admit ignorance then you're an agnostic.  so then you are just as guilty of claiming knowledge as i am.

Not really. An agnostic thinks the knowledge of the divine is unobtainable. Agnostics can be theists or atheists depending on their bias. Those who don't know whether or not they believe are, per definition, atheists, since surety in having a belief is a requirement of theism.

[Whitney]

:facepalm2:

[Asmodean]

Thought you'd disagree

Ah well, I won't engage in a semantics game now. Was just pointing out a flaw in general understanding of "Agnostic"

[Whitney]

Thought you'd disagree :hmm:

my facepalm was for harriet

[Asmodean]

Thought you'd disagree :hmm:

my facepalm was for harriet

Ah..! I seem to remember you defining yourself as agnostic

[McQ]

I will not waste time in debate with anyone who does this. In my opinion, you are here to play games and see what kind of trouble you can make. If I don't see otherwise from you soon, your time here will be very brief. Trolling is not something I have patience with, and you are pushing it.

McQ, how do you expect to conduct an honest search for the truth if you get so angry when people disagree with you.  seriously, why should you get angry if someone disagrees with you.  if i'm stupid then why should that make you angry?  

Where do you get your knowledge of the assertions you are making? Be specific and elaborate fully, please.
 

it's called common sense.  where there is a design there is a designer.  random forces don't design.  common sense.  now, how something comes from nothing, i don't know and neither do you, common sense doesn't teach us that.

Where is the evidence to back up your assertions? Be specific and elaborate fully on them, once again.

where is your evidence that random forces can create a star which fuses hydrogen into helium?  my assertions are based on the common sense notion that only intelligence can write code as seen in the dna code.

What is your level of science education?

pretty high. what's yours?

Do you understand what a bad analogy is?

yes, do you?

You seem to think your analogies are representative of reality. They are not. Your analogies to describe your ideas are simply flawed.

demonstrate why

You have simply repeated assertions that are patently false, over and over.

evidence please

You chose poorly, harriet. I wrote very simple questions and used words carefully. You have chosen to ignore civil answers and take the smartass route instead. Funny though, because I figured you would do that. Looks like I estimated you correctly. Before your almost inevitable ban, I want you to know a couple of things. One is that I am not even remotely angry. Nothing approaching that has crossed my mind with you. You assumed wrongly, as you have done since you got here. At best, I'm mildly annoyed with having to repeat myself, but I wouldn't have taken the time if it bothered me that much. So nice try with your accusation, but wrong.

You chose not to answer a single question I asked you with a straight answer. Pretty unwise thing to do, when you've got two strikes already, and one of the forum Mods asks you for a straight answer. I'll go so far as to label you a phoney and a liar as well. If you had an inkling of scientific education, you would not have made the baseless assertions you made.

By the way, I have a Bachelor's Degree in Biology (which only really means I was earnest enough to study in school to get it), so big whoopdie-doo; a Bachelor's Degree in Geography too, but I have twenty years of work experience in the fields of biology, bio-pharma manufacturing, research and development, and hematology and oncology, working with molecular compounds which target among other things, human DNA. That's how I know your DNA analogy is so laughable.

If you are here to learn, let's see it now. Otherwise, enjoy some time away from the forum.