Re: Everybody Draw Mohammed Day!

[Logikos]

I am happy we both see that!    

I need further time to consider this issue, I had a conversation with someone today that has humbled my slightly.

So please forgive me that I do not reply to your post in detail.

No worries, Dretlin, good to see you're thinking through stuff.

[SSY]

Late to the party, but hey ho.

I am broadly in support, I think drawing Mohammed is a valid way of showing our dissatisfaction at peoples attempts to curtail the freedom's of others with violence. I do not see how this is any worse (in act, I believe it to be better in many ways) than Marching through a city to protest something you disagree with.

Also, LOL Karadan.

[philosoraptor]

[hvargas]

According to many in this forum is O'K to make other people angry. I know that Islam is a LIED just like Chistianity is a LIED but I will not derived any pleasures in insulting or in malicious criticism of somone elses beliefs systems. Some think that to say such and such is an expression of their rights to freedom but they fail to look into the freedom of the one they criticise, that is to say, they violate the freedom of others. There is what is called constructive criticism which when used correctly does not violate the freedom of the one being criticise. Some people need to learn that. What do you think will happen if you have a " Everyboby Draw Jesus Day " sitting on a toylet naked.

[i_am_i]

I know that Islam is a LIED just like Chistianity is a LIED but I will not derived any pleasures in insulting or in malicious criticism of somone elses beliefs systems.

Then what the hell do you call labeling anyone's belief system as a "LIED?" Constructive criticism?

If I call you a liar would you not consider that malicious criticism? Well, you are a liar. You do the very thing you say you will not do.

And I'm all for an Everybody Draw Jesus day.

[pinkocommie]

According to many in this forum is O'K to make other people angry. I know that Islam is a LIED just like Chistianity is a LIED but I will not derived any pleasures in insulting or in malicious criticism of somone elses beliefs systems. Some think that to say such and such is an expression of their rights to freedom but they fail to look into the freedom of the one they criticise, that is to say, they violate the freedom of others.  There is what is called constructive criticism which when used correctly does not violate the freedom of the one being criticise. Some people need to learn that. What do you think will happen if you have a " Everyboby Draw Jesus Day " sitting on a toylet naked.

Criticism doesn't violate anyone else's rights.  You might think it's rude or unnecessary, but being rude isn't a violation of anyone's rights either.  Personally I don't think anyone should go out of their way to be rude to anyone else, but I also don't think that this specific response, which was inspired by a death threat, is properly categorized as going out of one's way to be rude.  You can disagree with me, about half of the people here do, but to try to say that I am somehow reducing the rights of someone else because I'm drawing a picture is ridiculous.  Don't like it?  Don't look at it.  Ignore it.  Take the power of the protest away by not paying any attention to it.  You have the freedom to do that.  

Someone telling me I can't do something because of their religion is a violation of my rights because my freedom is being involuntarily restricted.  People of that group choose to have their rights restricted and while I think that's silly, I would never try to tell them what they can or can't do based on my opinion of the way people ought to act.  They, however, seem to have little issue with telling me how I should act which I would normally ignore, except the whole death threat thing kind of dumps the issue up in importance in my mind.  Lots of religions have rules they impose on their group, which is fine, but trying to impose rules on people outside of the group?  Unacceptable.  How would you feel if Jews suddenly started threatening to kill anyone who ate pork or if Hindus decided to send out death threats to everyone involved in the cattle industry?  Would it be a violation of their rights to tell them to fuck off?  Would it be a violation of their rights for me to eat a bacon cheeseburger in front of them as a form of protest?  Absolutely not.

Do you honestly believe that you have the right to dictate someone else's behavior based on your opinion of what is rude and what isn't, what is acceptable and what isn't?  That seems insane to me.

[philosoraptor]

A+, pinko.

[Tom62]

If this whole thing is about the South Park episode that was censored because of Muslim death threads, than the radical Muslims already won. The western media is censoring themselves. This is the same media that withdrew Salman Rusdies' book "Satanic Verses" from the British bookshops in the 80's and the same media  that called the Muslim outcry against the original Mohammed cartoons a "freedom of speech" violation. This tells me more about the media than about the radical Muslims. As long as something happens far away from you then it is OK to make a stand, but if you are a target yourself then is is better to back-off.

Unfortunately, drawing additional Mohammed cartoons won't change our "freedom of speech" losses to a win. Time after time, we've sent clear signals to the radical Muslims that we are afraid of them and that we are willing to give up our basic human rights, because we are so damned scared. The radicals already know that they have the power to bring "freedom of speech" to a halt, because there will always be people in the media, in governments, in city counsels and anywhere else, who are not brave enough to stand up against them. But then of course it takes bravery to stand up against them, because some people, who actually did that, are now either dead (like Theo van Gogh) or constantly in hiding, because they are afraid of their lives (like Salman Rusdie and Kurt Westergaard). Drawing Mohammed cartoons may ease our own minds, but it doesn't solve our real problems with those crazy fanatics and with "freedom of speech".

[karadan]

I completely see your point Tom. However, I think there is some merit to raising this issue with moderate muslims. As far as facebook is concerned, there seems to be a lot of people asking why there is a draw mohammed day. There are normal people getting hugely offended by it because they think we are just making fun of them. I've been having a really cool conversation with a muslem guy on FB because of that particular group. Initially he was outraged but all I needed to do to pacify him was explain the reasons why there was this particular facebook group. Since then we've been talking about normal stuff

Of course, the radicals will win every time. They are the ones with the inclination to actually murder in the name of their belief. I don't think it is so disingenuous for comedy central to censor south park. They have the safety of their employees to be concerned with. Besides, I don't know about you, but if someone directed a death threat at me for saying something and I knew they had the ability to find me, I'd definitely recant. I'm soft. I'm not willing to die just because I said something which offended someone.

[hvargas]

To say that I don't believe in God is about the same as saying God is a lied. If I tell a christian or a muslim that their religion is a lied, I'm not insulting them. Their most natural response towards me, may be " you're just ignorant or have not found God ". To tell someone that what they are presenting is a lied, is not insulting. That someone must then prove why is not a lied and I in turn must show why it's a lied. I do not take sides between beliefs but there must be some limits and respects. Yes, you have rights and feel that if you are limited such limits deprides you of your rights. What about the rights of others? Are your rights greater than the rights of others or more specials? I can criticise both christians and muslims using their own history as to what they had done. All the killings and wars and thats not a lied which is still going on today. Many here are sensitives atheist that may not want to show it but at the same time they are non-sensitive to others.

[elliebean]

Are your rights greater than the rights of others or more specials?

No, and neither are theirs, which is exactly the point. We have the right to free speech, to make cartoons or anything else; we're not asking for any special privilege, they are - the privilege of having their religious customs observed unwillingly by everyone else. No one has that right, nor should anyone. The protest is one way to declare a boundary between where our rights begin and theirs end.

[pinkocommie]

To say that I don't believe in God is about the same as saying God is a lied. If I tell a christian or a muslim that their religion is a lied, I'm not insulting them. Their most natural response towards me, may be " you're just ignorant or have not found God ". To tell someone that what they are presenting is a lied, is not insulting. That someone must then prove why is not a lied and I in turn must show why it's a lied. I do not take sides between beliefs but there must be some limits and respects. Yes, you have rights and feel that if you are limited such limits deprides you of your rights. What about the rights of others? Are your rights greater than the rights of others or more specials? I can criticise both christians and muslims using their own history as to what they had done. All the killings and wars and thats not a lied which is still going on today. Many here are sensitives atheist that may not want to show it but at the same time they are non-sensitive to others.

Drawing a picture doesn't violate anyone else's rights.  Saying something is wrong doesn't violate anyone else's rights.  Disagreeing with something doesn't violate anyone else's rights.  No one, besides the people saying that I am not allowed to draw a picture because if what they believe, is prioritizing their rights over anyone else's.

Your position is entirely hypocritical.  Some people would find your assertion that religion "is a lied" (?) is just as insulting as someone drawing a picture of Mohammed, regardless of the evidence you present to them that your assertion is true.  If that were the case than by your own logic, you are both violating the rights of others and prioritizing your own rights above theirs because you said something someone else found insultingly offensive.  It would seem that your position is that when it comes to your personal criticism, you have the right to speak out, but if you disagree with the criticism being put forth, the person doing the criticizing is violating the other person's rights.  That's precisely why freedom of speech is so important - I don't want people like you deciding how I'm allowed to express myself, be it criticism or anything else.

[Ellainix]

Of course, the radicals will win every time.

Not this time!

[philosoraptor]

Bumping, since it's the 20th.  Happy EDMD!

[Cecilie]

Ahh. Thanks for reminding me. I was afraid I'd forget.