Ethical basis for Veganism or Vegetarianism?

[elliebean]

I suppose I might feel all right about eating an animal that I didn't know that died naturally in old age after a life lived in it's proper habitat. But as you can imagine that doesn't seem like anything feasible marketing wise for the agri-business industry.

Gotta be honest, that doesn't sound very tasty, either.

[dogsmycopilot]

I suppose I might feel all right about eating an animal that I didn't know that died naturally in old age after a life lived in it's proper habitat. But as you can imagine that doesn't seem like anything feasible marketing wise for the agri-business industry.

Gotta be honest, that doesn't sound very tasty, either.

Probably isn't. Although I don't know, before I was vegan I probably only had the same factory farming products most people do.

[Iamwaves]

Arent plants beings just like animals?

So if its not ok for us to consume a being, you still do when you consume a plant. Its living. Its producing energy (like an animal does) but from the sun. Its a being. Are plants different than humans and animals because of the way they acquire their energy?

Or is this just a hippie idea? rofl idk.

[elliebean]

I don't think many vegetarians feel it's "not ok to consume a being".

Bacteria are beings. They live in your mouth. You consume them every few seconds, when you swallow.

[spoiler:2u71knqq]The most common type of bacteria found in the survey of saliva was Streptococcus, Stoneking said. People typically have Streptococcus in their mouths living benignly, although certain species are responsible for diseases such as strep throat, meningitis and bacterial  pneumonia.[/spoiler:2u71knqq]

[Iamwaves]

Hmm, so i guess my pondering is if those vegetarians actually exist like that. I guess hippies? ive never met a true hippie so...

[dogsmycopilot]

Arent plants beings just like animals?

Are they? Do you seriously feel that the sentience of a lima bean is equal to that of pig? And if so what do you base that upon?

[Iamwaves]

Do you seriously feel that the sentience of a lima bean is equal to that of pig? And if so what do you base that upon?

Naturally, plants are very sentient of their environment. They do not have brains, obviously, but they can react to changes in the environment, this is obvious. Some plants ‘react’ to insects by releasing deterrent or poisonous chemicals. Some plants release chemicals to deter other plants from growing near them. Some plants are either aggressive or passive in root development depending on whether or not they are around their own species. The Venus Flytrap catches and consumes insects when insects come in contact with tiny hairs that trigger the trap to close. But how do we know a plant doesn't feel pain and suffering when consumed by animals? But what I can believe is that they do have the same sentience in that fact that they both must survive, which comes natural to all organisms.

I was just asking if people think this way. I am not a vegetarian, i was just curious haha

[dogsmycopilot]

Do you seriously feel that the sentience of a lima bean is equal to that of pig? And if so what do you base that upon?

Naturally, plants are very sentient of their environment. They do not have brains, obviously, but they can react to changes in the environment, this is obvious. Some plants ‘react’ to insects by releasing deterrent or poisonous chemicals. Some plants release chemicals to deter other plants from growing near them. Some plants are either aggressive or passive in root development depending on whether or not they are around their own species. The Venus Flytrap catches and consumes insects when insects come in contact with tiny hairs that trigger the trap to close. But how do we know a plant doesn't feel pain and suffering when consumed by animals? But what I can believe is that they do have the same sentience in that fact that they both must survive, which comes natural to all organisms.

I was just asking if people think this way. I am not a vegetarian, i was just curious haha

I have seen the argument before and I still think now what I thought then (before I was veg) that it is naive. There is a very definite difference between the way a lima bean experiences the world and the way a pig does. How do we know a plant doesn't feel pain? Because it does not have the equipment to feel it. Reflexes are not the same as experiencing life. Personally, it is not the argument on which I base my veganism, so if I ever heard evidence to the contrary I'd be open to it. But I find it naive and the argument of the grays: People who are romanticist and see no differences in life forms, who see everything in shades of gray. To me there is a right and wrong, there are lines. They may not be your lines but they are there. Plants don't have the same equipment we do, which is why you will find efforts to give rights to apes but never corn.

[Iamwaves]

But that lima bean wants to survive just as much as the pig wants to survive for the sole purpose of passing on its genes.

[Whitney]

I had a conversation at dinner today about vegetarianism and ethics (btw, it was quite civil despite some differences of opinion on how one ought to draw ethical lines) .  One person brought up that given how little we really know about nervous systems that it wouldn't surprise him if we find out later down the line that we have been unknowingly causing horrible harm to tons of plants that really can feel pain but just do so in a way we don't yet recognize as possible.

[TheMagicSpatula]

After reading this entire thread, one question keeps coming back, how do you distinguish between animal life and plant life when deciding what to eat.  I simply cannot comprehend this as a valid argument against vegetarianism.  It seems reductionist to me, much too black and white.  It does, however, raise a deep question about the nature of life and what we value.  I think that vegetarians care less about what is alive, and more about what life has experiences similar to our own.    

I see consciousness as a sliding scale, some beings have more, some less.  By this I mean that some beings are mostly reactionary, and simply react to stimulus, making few decisions independently, and others are capable of thought and decision making that is less effected by immediate stimuli, and more by what we would refer to as thought.  However, the only beings that everyone seems to be certain have consciousness are human beings, since we all are human beings, and most of us think of ourselves as conscious.  It goes along with our hubris.  Since most agree that we human beings have consciousness, we work to explore how our own self-aware state arises, and every indication points to the nervous system giving rise to this effect we call consciousness.

We have no way of verifying if plants have any sort of self-awareness.  At least not right now.  So to me it would seem like there is no case that the lima bean has any feelings or thoughts at all.  That lima beans "want" to survive is equivalent to saying that when wood, oxygen, and heat get together, they want to create fire, or that when I hit submit below, my computer "wants" to post my message.  There is no decision making from what I can tell in plants, they simply react a certain way given their inputs.  I guess it could be argued that all living things are like this, that human beings are simply reacting to the multiple, complex stimuli in the world, but that would render the entire discussion of ethics useless, since without conscious decisions, can we really call an action moral or immoral?

[strikemedown]

Do the vegans out there grow their own vegies? or do they eat farmed products like most of us? More individual lives are lost tilling and harvesting than are lost for grazing animals. Tractors run over all sorts of creatures as they work the land. And if you do grow your own - eating them would be like murdering your own children - as for the zebras dying cruel deaths - why don't we just eat all the lions? If God didn't want us to eat meat - she wouldn't have made it so delicious.

[G-Roll]

Do the vegans out there grow their own vegies? or do they eat farmed products like most of us? More individual lives are lost tilling and harvesting than are lost for grazing animals. Tractors run over all sorts of creatures as they work the land. And if you do grow your own - eating them would be like murdering your own children - as for the zebras dying cruel deaths - why don't we just eat all the lions? If God didn't want us to eat meat - she wouldn't have made it so delicious.

so if i where a veggie eater or vegan.... and i planted some cabbage. im going to feel a connection similar to the connection i feel toward my own child?
or even better yet.... if i was a rancher who loved eating cows and a baby calf was born. if i killed it to eat it or sold it to be slaughtered would i be basically murdering a child of mine?
everything dies. if it ever lived it will die. i believe simba called it the circle of life. i see vegetarians and vegans as people who wish to contribute as little as possible to this circle. that or they are people who just dont like to eat meat.
meat eaters such as myself well.... im not about to make a huge generalization like that.

really my point is who cares? if they dont eat meat for whatever reason, there is more for me to choose from at the meat section. maybe this way i can get some good cheap beef ribs. you know the ones that are always sold out. also (i know next to nothing about economics and im about ot prove it) if there is no demand for the supply, wouldnt the cost go down?
im sure if anyone is going to reply to this post they will possibly go the route of vegetarians and vegans judge me as an immoral person. in all honesty i really dont care what vegetarians think of me. but in my 31 years of life i have never met a veggie eater who judged me for eating meat. now ive seen hippies with red paint tossing it on people who wear fur. i dont know if those people are still alive cause thats a good way to get yourself shot.... but thats a whole other story.

[KayLP87]

Yup still a veggie! I own Chickens and they are treated very well and live happy lives, but I am still not going to eat them. My opinion on meat is you don't eat dogs, cats, horses, or even your pet fish; so why is it ok to eat cows, chickens, pigs, and tuna? Some will say that, we raise dogs to be our pets and pigs to eat, but in China they eat dog. Dogs to the chinese are the same as pigs! Meat is from animals no matter how they are treated before they die, so I will be a veggie no matter what.  

[pinkocommie]

Yup still a veggie! I own Chickens and they are treated very well and live happy lives, but I am still not going to eat them. My opinion on meat is you don't eat dogs, cats, horses, or even your pet fish; so why is it ok to eat cows, chickens, pigs, and tuna? Some will say that, we raise dogs to be our pets and pigs to eat, but in China they eat dog. Dogs to the chinese are the same as pigs! Meat is from animals no matter how they are treated before they die, so I will be a veggie no matter what.  

Given the necessity, I WOULD eat a dog, a horse, insects, cats, whatever I had to to survive.  I don't know many people who wouldn't.  Some people would never choose dog over cow if given the choice, but I honestly don't see how that's much different than choosing to eat vegetables over meats.  One choice is no better or worse than the other, it's just a different standard of preference.  

I'm not saying you personally were claiming anything, but I will say generally that claiming that vegetarianism or veganism is in any way an ethically, logically, or morally superior lifestyle is just as ridiculous in my opinion as claiming that eating meat is more logical because we have teeth that are designated to chew muscle.  We have legs made for walking, that doesn't mean it's always more logical to walk than to drive a car.  It's just a preference.  As long as the logic you feel works for you isn't applied to anyone else, then awesome.  Makes sense.