Ethical basis for Veganism or Vegetarianism?

[SSY]

Your definition of civilisation is or includes, less killing of animals?

[Typist]

Your definition of civilisation is or includes, less killing of animals?

Less unnecessary violence of any kind, including animals, yes.

[SSY]

Aztecs less civilised than leaf-cutter ants, got it.

[Whitney]

If civilization has anything to do with less killing it is that those who live in the same society as you are encouraged not to kill you; conversely, they are encouraged to kill "the enemy" which can be any outsider the leaders of society choose to demonize.

[karadan]

In a perfect world, we'd all eat vat-grown meat.

Mmmm, vat-grown...

[curiosityandthecat]

In a perfect world, we'd all eat vat-grown meat.

Mmmm, vat-grown...

I'll just settle for the human flavored tofu.  

[elliebean]

Tastes of chicken?

[karadan]

Tastes of chicken?

Apparently not!

"If you've never had human flesh before, think of the taste and texture of beef, except a little sweeter in taste and a little softer in texture. Contrary to popular belief, people do not taste like pork or chicken."

Ok, who the smeg wrote that and how do they know?

Was that some kind of april fools Curio?  

[curiosityandthecat]

Tastes of chicken?

Cake or death?

Was that some kind of april fools Curio?  

Yeah.

[karadan]

Haha. Nice one. I had a few people in the office crowd around my pc and yell various chants of 'gross' and 'eew'

[elliebean]

Tastes of chicken?

Cake or death?

Uh, death, please. No, cake! Cake! Cake, sorry. Sorry...

[curiosityandthecat]

Haha. Nice one. I had a few people in the office crowd around my pc and yell various chants of 'gross' and 'eew'

Uh, death, please. No, cake! Cake! Cake, sorry. Sorry...

Aaah hah, you said death first!

[skevosmavros]

(...) Also, I think I remember reading something about chimp populations hunting smaller monkeys, and some think that a similar process happened with us, our increased protein intake allowed us to develop larger brains, sending us on the path to civilisation.

At the risk of going off on a tangent - I've heard this "pre-modern-human meat eating led to bigger brains" claim too, but it always seemed a bit Lamarkian to me, sort of like animals reaching for the upper leaves on plants is what caused their descendants to develop longer necks.  As for the meat-eating claim, how can any brain-size-enhancing effect of eating meat be passed on to my offspring?  Wouldn't they too have to eat meat to get the same brain-size-enhancing effect?  Even if there was selection pressure favouring those individuals that received the biggest brain-size boost from eating meat (perhaps they outsmart the competition for survival and mates?), all they would pass on is their greater ability to gain brain size from meat eating, they would not pass on actually larger brains - surely?

There was even an eat-more-meat TV campaign here in Australia (starring Sam Neil) that referenced the claim about eating meat and bigger brains:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBhdqrdN4zg

So it's a pretty common claim.  When I looked into it the link was basically a correlation (the time our ancestors started eating meat was also the time their brains got bigger, therefore... nudge nudge wink wink).

Lamarkian evolution dies hard - I know I had a semi-Lamarkian understanding of evolution for years before I even realised it.

BIAS ALERT - I am a 20-year ovo-lacto vegetarian, so I'm probably predisposed to not like the idea that meat is what gave me my brains.  

[Whitney]

I think the argument is not that eating meat caused the evolution of bigger brains but that the desire to eat (fatty) meats provided the body with fuel necessary to grow a big brain.  So, those who had the desire to eat more brain fuel were smarter (since their brains grew better) and more likely to survive; thus passing on the desire and subsequently the ability to grow a bigger brain onto future generations.

[dogsmycopilot]

As I understand it, a lot of why vegetarians are vegetarians has to do with things like the way animals are treated before and during slaughter and what effect the meat industry has on the environment. I believe I understand both of these complaints, in fact I do what I can to buy responsible, locally grown, free-range meat. I even send out for grass-fed beef when I occasionally eat it.

Let's say, hypothetically, as time goes on more progressive elements in government can put in place legal protections for animals and more environmentally friendly procedures and practices. Animals are fed organic, locally grown grass and seeds instead of corn, live full and happy lives, are killed in a painless and un-frightening way, and are bought at the farm by local people. In other words, how would you feel about meat if the cruelty and environmental costs were reduced significantly or even removed? Would you still be a veggie?

Yes. I'm a vegan for emotional reasons so yes. It would not change for me. I suppose I might feel all right about eating an animal that I didn't know that died naturally in old age after a life lived in it's proper habitat. But as you can imagine that doesn't seem like anything feasible marketing wise for the agri-business industry.