It's like cancer

[Reginus]

Oh wow you changed my mind annihilation for not being in the buddy club is sooo much better then hell [sarcasm].  And how exactly does this show God's mercy?  I don't like you so you're gone forever oh and i like these people so i'm going to stroke them forever, are you serious?  Annihilation is almost as asinine as hell.  I'm not sure what bible verses were used to make up annihilation, just like purgatory (which existed one day and not the next -_-).  The most fucked up part of Christianity is this idea that all you have to do is believe and you get eternal bliss.  Whats even worse is the mentality instilled into the minds of believers that if you don't believe you absolutely 100% deserve this fate.    

The screwed up thing is most believers who subscribe to this asinine system wouldn't implement it themselves if they were calling the shots.  Again do you think its right to torture people forever for finite "crimes"?  How about blink them out of existence?  The thing is the Christian view is black and white if you stole a loaf of break to feed your starving family you are just as deserving of hellfire(or annihilation [thou shalt not steal]) as a guy who goes around abducting girls, raping them and then murdering them.  What if that rapist was born with a mental disorder and doesn't know right from wrong?  Is it his fault or is it Gods who gave that disorder to him?  Does your God have the right to make people a certain way then condemn them to hell for not following his orders that were impossible to follow to begin with?  With God (the tyrant) there is no grey area there are no degrees of crime(or charity)  its either eternal bliss or eternal damnation.

If I were to spend my entire life helping others, donating money to charities, volunteering at places where people needed help that same God would still condemn me to hell (or annihilation) because i'm an atheist while he would forgive a serial killer on death row because he "found Jesus".  Fuck that asinine way of thinking it is primitive and it doesn't belong in civilized society.

Now this brings me to another thought.  Does God have the right to do this?  If you were in a lab and you created creatures do you have the right to destroy them?  Do you have the right to torture them?  Just because you have the ability does that mean you have the right?  Does might make right?  If you are a moral/rational human being then you would answer NO to this.  If you would say you don't have the right then why does your God?  Might does not make right.  If i'm stronger then you and able to do whatever I wanted to you do I have the right to do it?  NO!  The whole Heaven and Hell system is fucked up and it needs to be removed from the systems of belief.

Might want to put on your ultra thick God glasses at this time.

Most theologists believe that hell is literally chosen by people (is not some sort of strange punishment God likes to inflict on non-believers). Let me give you an example: If an alcoholic who has abandoned his family goes to hell, he may get all the beer he wants, but he is missing out on life, missing out on the love of God and fellow people. This is what he wants, but it is absolutely hell to the rest of us. The Bible says that without Christ, all of us are doomed to this self created destiny. The only way it is possible to not go to hell is by accepting the invitation of God to make us how he wants us. Anything less and we are doomed to sin's corruption.

[LoneMateria]

Might want to put on your ultra thick God glasses at this time.

Most theologists believe that hell is literally chosen by people (is not some sort of strange punishment God likes to inflict on non-believers). Let me give you an example: If an alcoholic who has abandoned his family goes to hell, he may get all the beer he wants, but he is missing out on life, missing out on the love of God and fellow people. This is what he wants, but it is absolutely hell to the rest of us. The Bible says that without Christ, all of us are doomed to this self created destiny. The only way it is possible to not go to hell is by accepting the invitation of God to make us how he wants us. Anything less and we are doomed to sin's corruption.

By your tone I take it you don't subscribe to this.  I'm curious who "most theologists" are.  This view sounds like the karma view of hell, whatever you enjoyed most in the world would fuck you in hell.  Also where does it say that without Christ, all of us are doomed to a self created destiny?  Anyway this doesn't negate my points in my last post.  If you aren't in the buddy club you go to hell, just people seem to have different interpretations of what it entails.  It doesn't negate my points that God has no right to force us into this, he has no right to make us unhappy (or happy for that matter).  All this is, is another variation of a dubious place where you go when you die.

I just remembered something I heard on the Atheist experience.  There was an episode (well a few) that talked about hell and the impact it has on people.  They were explaining why the punishment is so bad and why it has to be.  Logic and reason already shine doubt on Christianity (theism in general) so in order to keep people on the boat you have to devise some means of keeping them on board.  Thats what hell is.  The reason hell is so bad is that you tell someone if you don't believe then you won't get hand jobs forever not a big deal, people will take their chances.  You have to create a punishment for not believing, and the more wild the claim the worse the punishment has to be to keep people believing.  If you told an atheist if he or she didn't believe in God then their punishment would be that they can't play video games for a year once they die.  Its not nearly enough motivation to keep me believing in a self contradictory concept that makes me reject science, reason, logic and critical thinking skills.  If i'm wrong fuck it no big deal.  So the early church had to make the concept of hell so much worse to keep people motivated, now its torture forever.  The punishment is just as wild as the claim now you can keep people invested in this system.  The first post here is evidence of it.

[Melchior]

Yes I would like to know, what most theologians? I understand that the barbaric hellfire concept has been abandoned by most in the “upper reaches” of Christianity, but only to be replaced by vague answers like “it’s a hell of their own making”, as an answer to what happened to Hitler. This answer was given by an Australian theologian from the ACU (Australian Catholic University), but really answers nothing…

[atheistlibrary]

Very very good post. This guy gets pretty deep! I can almost relate to him in a way. Some of us have thought deep about the same issues in our life. This guy should write a book!

[kelltrill]

One of my main problems with the hellfire scare tactic is not so much the effect it has on people who choose the religion that creates the fear, but with the people who choose not to follow the religion but are still effected by it. I suppose my approach to Christian people (to pick a religion I'm most familiar with) who stay Christian despite the fire and brimstone sermons is along the lines of, "if her husband beats her, she should just get out. Simple as that." I know there are other factors involved, I'm just looking at it superficially for the moment.

In grade 10 I wanted to drop science as a subject because I wanted to take another language instead. My whole life I had been told that without science, thousands of doors close to me in my future and that I will no longer be able to make free decisions and study what I want to study. But I dropped it anyway and I was extremely happy doing so, even though I constantly questioned whether or not it was the right thing to do at the time. Even after matric, applying at universities, I was still nervous that they'd point fingers and say, "hey, she doesn't have matric science, why is she even trying to study here?" 6 years later I still know I made the right decision, but that feeling that science as a highschool subject is important was unnaturally difficult to shake because I had had it "preached" to me since I could understand.

Because I was raised in an entirely secular environment, that analogy is the best one I can think of for a religious person who tries to shake their religion. The fear is never going to go away, so you had might as well just keep believing in order to stay on god's good side, perhaps.

Now and then I still worry about the possibilities of hell and an afterlife. Don't get me wrong, I'm living a decent life and don't believe in the physical, religious realms of heaven and hell, but the two concepts are so ingrained into our lives, whether we are believers or not. It's like everywhere you look people are talking about it, like it's saturated our society with religious preoccupation.  Not believing in a god is easy as pie for me, since I feel it is a rational and logical conclusion. It's the afterlife stuff that bugs me at times. Televangelists like Ray McCauley and Joel Osteen, Catholic leaders like the Pope, even movies about hell such as Constantine, Jacob's Ladder, The Gate etc. All of these things we know about, whether we believe in hell or not. It seems like the entire religious basis of our society is grounded in fear, which effects most people (granted, not everyone) on at least some microscopic level. No wonder we doubt ourselves sometimes.

[objectivitees]

It was the threat of hell that brought me into it, and it's the threat of hell that hangs over my head.

The author here makes his thesis. He was "brought into it" (Christianity) by a "threat" of hell. Now the first thing I wonder is... If the author wasn't a Christian prior to the "threat", then what possible validity could he afford the "threat". Non-believers by definition don't believe in Hell. So if he didn't believe it, then why would hearing of it suddenly cause any fear at all? He'd have to believe it to fear it. People don't fear what they don't believe. Therefore, I believe he's not being accurate when he claims it was the "threat" that brought him in. He already believed there may be some ultimate judgment for his behavior,  and hearing of the Christian hell only confirmed what he already knew on some other level.

This makes the second half of the statement look silly too. If he is no longer a Christian, then he is saying the Cristian hell does not exist, so why is he still fearing it? Irrational is as irrational does. It's not Christians, their beliefs, nor their expression of them that causes his dilemma. It's the author's own beliefs that cause him to believe he was wrong to reject the concept of hell, thus allowing for fear to enter, as he fears he is wrong on the overt expression of his beliefs while not being able to admit he really believes what he says he does not believe.  

[elliebean]

Non-believers by definition don't believe in Hell.

People don't fear what they don't believe.

If he is no longer a Christian, then he is saying the Cristian hell does not exist, so why is he still fearing it?

Support these assertions.

You seem to have a habit of thinking in binary terms. This is the third false dichotomy you've presented today.

[G-Roll]

i can understand someone still having a fear of something that they used to believe in. especially a newly deconverted or someone who had the idea of hellfire beaten into them.
I wonder if its possible to completely leave everything behind you where raised into…. I think so, but its influence could still be pretty heavy.
Any who, its not so outlandish imho for an atheists to have fears of hell. Perhaps an atheist of strong disbelief wouldn’t, as I think its funny when people tell me im going to hell. I like to claim im driving the bus down there and hell is much better than heaven. There is no beer in heaven. Just virgins…. All the whores and std riddled sluts go to hell, they are much more fun….

What was I talking about?
Oh yes atheists frightened of hell….
Its amusing, someone of faith would believe in things one can’t see, but doubt/not understand another’s fear of something they (the theists) might believe in.

[objectivitees]

Non-believers by definition don't believe in Hell.

People don't fear what they don't believe.

If he is no longer a Christian, then he is saying the Cristian hell does not exist, so why is he still fearing it?

Support these assertions.

You seem to have a habit of thinking in binary terms. This is the third false dichotomy you've presented today.

Binary terms? The phrase I believe you are looking for is " false bifurcation." I think this way because it is the proper way to formulate Logical argumentation. It's informally called "the law of the excluded middle", and is usually referred to as the third law of logic.

None of these are assertions, they are "AXIOMS" and as such don't have to be proven. Non-believers in christian hell by definition don't believe in it. people don't fear what they don't believe in because if they did, they'd believe it. So, is he saying he doesn't believe in Christianity but believes in it's hell?? Come on, your remarks in response to my posts here so far have been nothing but your bald assertions.

[Whitney]

It's called having a phobia due to brainwashing.  Lots of people are afraid of things that they know aren't real...I know someone who is afraid of sharks in a land locked lake; knowing a fear is irrational doesn't take away the pscyhological response.


Plus if you think the article referenced in the OP was intended to be taken as a logical argument for anything....sigh....

[Sophus]

It's called having a phobia due to brainwashing.  Lots of people are afraid of things that they know aren't real...I know someone who is afraid of sharks in a land locked lake; knowing a fear is irrational doesn't take away the pscyhological response.


Plus if you think the article referenced in the OP was intended to be taken as a logical argument for anything....sigh....

This is true. Some parental advice I got from a psychologist when dealing with my son when he's frightened: Make contact with him first, let him know he's loved and that you're there for him. Don't start explaining why the fear is irrational first. Because fear is never rational. And beginning with this will only irritate the parent and make the child feel "stupid" without easing any of his worries.

[objectivitees]

Because fear is never rational.

I guess I should stop fearing being shot by the enemy when I go into combat.

[Sophus]

Because fear is never rational.

I guess I should stop fearing being shot by the enemy when I go into combat.

Why is fear of death and dying rational? Fear is a feeling. Feelings are never a product of reason. Besides, isn't that the big Christian kick? You're not suppose to fear anything while God's on your side?

[elliebean]

Binary terms? The phrase I believe you are looking for is " false bifurcation." I think this way because it is the proper way to formulate Logical argumentation. It's informally called "the law of the excluded middle", and is usually referred to as the third law of logic.

None of these are assertions, they are "AXIOMS" and as such don't have to be proven. Non-believers in christian hell by definition don't believe in it. people don't fear what they don't believe in because if they did, they'd believe it. So, is he saying he doesn't believe in Christianity but believes in it's hell?? Come on, your remarks in response to my posts here so far have been nothing but your bald assertions.

You done puffing your chest out?

Ok, let me walk you through this:

It was the threat of hell that brought me into it, and it's the threat of hell that hangs over my head.

The author here makes his thesis. He was "brought into it" (Christianity) by a "threat" of hell. Now the first thing I wonder is... If the author wasn't a Christian prior to the "threat", then what possible validity could he afford the "threat". Non-believers by definition don't believe in Hell.

You ignore that there are people who are not christians, yet believe in hell. False dichotomy.

So if [we assume] he didn't believe it, then why would hearing of it suddenly cause any fear at all? He'd have to believe it to fear it. People don't fear what they don't believe.

Unsupported assertion; already dealt with.

Therefore, I believe he's not being accurate when he claims it was the "threat" that brought him in. He already believed there may be some ultimate judgment for his behavior,  and hearing of the Christian hell only confirmed what he already knew on some other level.

He may have already heard of, and believed in, all sorts of christian mythology without previously having identified as a christian. Binary thinking. It's all or nothing with you; either he's a fully indoctrinated christian, or he's totally immune.

This makes the second half of the statement look silly too. If he is no longer a Christian, then he is saying the Cristian hell does not exist...

Is he? For that matter, does christianity have a monopoly on concepts of hell? Not that your argument would be any stronger if it had.

so why is he still fearing it?

Got me.

Irrational is as irrational does.

Life is like a box of.... nobody said it was rational to have a fear of something that doesn't exist. Some people do, go figure. Besides, that fearful feeling could be a learned neurochemical response to certain stimuli, like psychological abuse, or people constantly telling him he's going to hell.

It's not Christians, their beliefs, nor their expression of them that causes his dilemma.

They sure help.

It's the author's own beliefs that cause him to believe he was wrong to reject the concept of hell...

Does he say that? Guess I missed that part. *shrugs*

thus allowing for fear to enter, as he fears he is wrong on the overt expression of his beliefs while not being able to admit he really believes what he says he does not believe.

Who knows what he believes or doesn't believe. He might be struggling with his skepticism or he might have trouble letting go of old habits. Hell, he could be making the whole thing up. Some of us don't pretend to read minds.

[Ellavemia]

I don't agree with the original author of the article but I can sympathize because I know many people are very engrossed in their religion before coming to terms.

On the other hand, If "hell" is that place where you were before you were conceived where you had no thoughts, no memories, no body or mind, no you, no existence at all; then I am going to hell and yes, I do fear it. Biblical Hell is like a sunny day when compared to utter lack of existence and that's just why I believe it was created. Because I don't think people in general can handle thinking about the truth for too long. It will surely drive them nuts.

I accept that one day not that long from now on the grand scale I will cease to be. It makes me very sad to know that my grandmother and former pets aren't waiting for me in some other place, whether the place is pure good or pure pain. I don't dwell on the reality because it frightens and saddens me and it's just too much.